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dioscuri

Charles Roegier; Who is he REALLY?

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dioscuri    0

If Hippolitoi is the character we all love to hate ... why give him such an extensive thread? I know! I started it! However, there are so many other characters to talk about and none are more important and also enigmatic than Charles Roegier, ühn•ki'sh'onfenn of the Sh'ônfenn.

I have to say that I am more than just a bit puzzled and confused at Jamie's reaction to Charles after he gets his memories back. I know that their relationship has been a rocky one from the beginning of Book One, but I would expect that given their personalities and personal interests.

It seems to me that he is doing exactly as he has claimed to be doing from the beginning --- that is implementing Jonas' wishes about the new race as best as he can. Things have been completely unexpected since they awoke some 2560 years after entering stasis. From what we know of the times before stasis, things were several orders or magnitude more complex and with it, the political intrigue happening within the Empire.

Charles is head of an organization which has obviously been twisted by the Empire to its own insane uses. Torture, murder, and intimidation were never part of Jonas or Croal's plans, yet Charles has found himself in the middle of the worst of the Empire.

We also believe for some reason that he has lost a mate, which we know for an Icarian can mean insanity. Disunion usually but not always results in insanity and death. Charles still lives. Did he or did he not have a mate who died (or was murdered)?

How did he manage to pick his way through the intrigues of the Empire seemingly unscathed? How could he have worked under Savaron Loka, kept true to his belief in Jonas' philosophy?

If Johnathan is Charles' brother, where did the other half of the DNA to create Johnathan come from? Jamie and Charlie are brothers, they share most of their DNA in common, but not all, we know that Charlie has some DNA from the Ghroum that Jamie does not have --- hence Charlie's pointed ears. So you see where my questions about Charles relationship to Johnathan are coming from.

I have no answers for these questions. The easiest of the questions above is how he dealt with Savaron Loka's agents within his organization --- with a blaster! But what is remarkable is how he actually seemed to keep a step ahead of Loka. (I'm also surprised that Arlot's handy mini-blaster didn't target Hippolito at one point!)

So, here is an alternative to the Hippolito needle I attempted to thread. (Pardon the pun!)

cheers,

dioscuri

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TalonRider    1

One of the things I've wondered about is, when did Jamie and Charles meet exactly. To my knowledge, they haven't met yet in the story and can only assume they will be meeting soon. We do know that Charles has known about Jamie for a very long time, but didn't know about Charlie.

We do know Charles had a mate at one point, but I think the big questions is, were they a mating pair? If they weren't, that could explain why he doesn't appear to suffer disunion. The rose bush in his garden was set up as memorial to his partner. What makes me think of this comes from one of the chapters after Christophe's death where Jamie finds out from one of the Trio that he loved Christophe and he refused to mate due to being in the chair.

Jonathan could be Charles brother biologically, or in an adopted from. Jonathan could also be from the experimentation that was done on vision which failed, but had an unusual side effect in which he was still able to see, just differently from everyone else. We've seen this demonstrated in Book 1 during Nic's birthday celebration.

Perhaps Gold Glass was trying to enhance the Red and Blacks and Jonathan was the end result.

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dioscuri    0

One of the things I've wondered about is, when did Jamie and Charles meet exactly. To my knowledge, they haven't met yet in the story and can only assume they will be meeting soon. We do know that Charles has known about Jamie for a very long time, but didn't know about Charlie.

We do know Charles had a mate at one point, but I think the big questions is, were they a mating pair? If they weren't, that could explain why he doesn't appear to suffer disunion. The rose bush in his garden was set up as memorial to his partner. What makes me think of this comes from one of the chapters after Christophe's death where Jamie finds out from one of the Trio that he loved Christophe and he refused to mate due to being in the chair.

I do not think an Icarian can have a mate without the bond. Its part of Icarian biology and created like that. So if Charles had a mate he suffered disunion. It is possible for the surviving partner to fight the madness and loneliness of disunion though it apparently doesn't happen very often. The surviving partner must have some overriding purpose with which to replace the mate. That's hard to do.

Jonathan could be Charles brother biologically, or in an adopted from. Jonathan could also be from the experimentation that was done on vision which failed, but had an unusual side effect in which he was still able to see, just differently from everyone else. We've seen this demonstrated in Book 1 during Nic's birthday celebration.

True enough, but what about the Empire's (and Gold Glass') demand that Icarians be as perfect as possible. There are, as far as we know, no other Icarians decanted with a disability the likes of what Johnathan has. Its also not unusual for someone born without one sense to have the other senses enhanced in some way to make up for it. Johnathan "sees" things using synesthesia. Synesthestesia is where one sense is observed using another sense. Some people actually see sound as having colour. That is synesthesia. Johnathon for instance sees Lon Nol (is he real or just an anagram?) with dark vapour could around or over him. His mind is creating an image to go with what he senses.

Synesthesia comes up in the 19th century in the German Romantic movement in Literature. E.T.A. Hoffmann and Jean Paul (Pen name) spoke about it and it figures in music often from that century onward. "Behold! The Sea itself .... and on its limitless heaving breast ...." Walt Whitman; as used in Ralph Vaughan Williams "A Sea Symphony".

The sea, of course does not have breasts and they do not heave like breasts do ... however, we understand what Whitman is getting at when he uses language as passionately descriptive as this example.

Perhaps Gold Glass was trying to enhance the Red and Blacks and Jonathan was the end result.

You would think they'd have learned their lesson when they produced something like Hippolito!

cheers,

dioscuri

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TomasG    1

I believe that Jonas was Charles' mate. Also that disunion took place and Charles used physical pain to help him fight the madness that comes with disunion.

From Book 2, Part 2, Chapter 18 when Darion Trapp, the tat ühn•ki, enters Charles' office he finds:

“ühn•ki?” the Icarian once again called and then stood silently waiting, knowing better than to interrupt again. He hadn’t spent much time with the ühn•ki in the last month, and in the past few days had become a bit concerned about his leader’s sudden isolation.

It was then that Darion noticed the slender boy had his right hand wrapped around the wrist of his left arm, and it appeared to the tat ühn•ki that the ühn•ki’s fingernails were digging fiercely into his own wrist. When he looked more closely and saw blood trickling down the ühn•ki’s hand, he realized it was more than just appearance.

I don't think that Jamie ever met Charles in the earlier time line. His antipathy towards Charles is likely because he knows that it was Charles that authorized the raid on Villa Mare Vista and believes that he ordered the killing of Croal. I doubt that he knows that Loka took over the raid without Charles's knowledge and told Darion Trapp to stay out of it, he would take care of it.

I'm not sure that Charles, in his isolation and in his fight against the madness of disunion, was aware of just how much of the Sh'ônfenn had been subverted to his own purpose by Loka. Did you notice that of the 12 Red and Black that we know survived, only Charles sided with Jamie and Nic and how surprised he was that the other 11 didn't. The 11 that went with Hippolito were evidently Loka loyalist. As was Geoffrey of Batwig. Although, he may just been miffed that he was passed over for elevation to prince.

Anyway it should all become clear once we get to Part 4 and the end of a very long cliffhanger.

TomasG

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pietro    1

One of the things I've wondered about is, when did Jamie and Charles meet exactly. To my knowledge, they haven't met yet in the story and can only assume they will be meeting soon. We do know that Charles has known about Jamie for a very long time, but didn't know about Charlie.

We do know Charles had a mate at one point, but I think the big questions is, were they a mating pair? If they weren't, that could explain why he doesn't appear to suffer disunion. The rose bush in his garden was set up as memorial to his partner. What makes me think of this comes from one of the chapters after Christophe's death where Jamie finds out from one of the Trio that he loved Christophe and he refused to mate due to being in the chair.

Jonathan could be Charles brother biologically, or in an adopted from. Jonathan could also be from the experimentation that was done on vision which failed, but had an unusual side effect in which he was still able to see, just differently from everyone else. We've seen this demonstrated in Book 1 during Nic's birthday celebration.

Perhaps Gold Glass was trying to enhance the Red and Blacks and Jonathan was the end result.

I think Jamie and Charles first 'real' meeting must be in the chapters to come. Of course, Charles may have been the Icarian visitor to Croal or Jamie might have seen him, without being introduced, at one of the various functions he attended, I am sure anyone else there would have been more than eager to fill Jamie in on Charles' power and supposed evil, certainly Miro and the other Gahdar would know all about him. And you know what irrepressible gossips they are :D .

I don't think disunion inevitably leads to madness and death, that outcome is just very likely. I am sure that at one point Jamie asks Niklas to fight disunion should anything happen to Jamie and protect Charlie. Given a great enough responsibility or need I think it can be overcome.

The question of Jonathan is very difficult. Jonathan's condition is almost certainly not accidental or a by-product of a failed experiment. Like Jamie, Niklas and Charlie he must have been created outside of official empire view and like them was created for a specific purpose with specific attributes in line with Croal and Jonas' plans. Indeed it would be very Croal-like for Jonathan to be created as Charles' genetic brother in order to ensure he always had powerful protection, just as he did with Jamie (the shield) and Charlie (the weapon). The interesting question is where has Jonathan been.

I suppose he could have been a 'failed' experiment in that it is fairly obvious there were people in Gold Glass who actively assisted Croal and the resistance and his real 'adjustments' were done secretly with the failed experiment as cover. After that he would have been spirited away and hidden while officially terminated. Alternatively Charles may have been allowed to keep him if he was a true genetic brother, even if a failed experiment, but given the attitude of the empire I think that unlikely, certainly if that was part of a plan to keep Jonathan safe it would have been a very foolhardy one, not likely to succeed.

Also remember the empire's watchword when creating avionnes was perfection, imperfect production was terminated as happened to those unfortunate to be born blind in the vision experiments.

Let us hope there some answers in the not too distant future.

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TalonRider    1

The Red and Black that was in Edmond Croal's office that day was not Charles. Several minutes after the hov left Villa Mare Vista, and was well out of sight, was destroyed. We also changed time for a short period to find Charles signing the order, then switched back.

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dioscuri    0

The Red and Black that was in Edmond Croal's office that day was not Charles. Several minutes after the hov left Villa Mare Vista, and was well out of sight, was destroyed. We also changed time for a short period to find Charles signing the order, then switched back.

I'm not sure we can surmise that the Icarian was not Charles. I'm not saying it was but just that since the hov is destroyed out of sight of anyone we know of who was watching, almost anything could have happened within even 3 minutes. Look how fast Renaud lands and restarts his hov while dropping off Jamie at the power generator! We also do not know if the Icarian in Croal's office was the pilot of the hov or if he had another person in the hov acting as pilot.

All we know is that Jamie saw a Red & Black Icarian entering a hov, then the hov taking off immediately. The flight back to Kuronos would have taken over an hour which gives ample time for someone to have landed, gotten out of the hov, put the hov back into the air or changed hovs mid-trip. Conspiricy theory I know, but isn't this what the Empire is best at?

This is one other incident that has Jamie.wri signature written all over it as a huge unsolvable puzzle designed to keep us wondering.

cheers,

dioscuri

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pietro    1

The Red and Black that was in Edmond Croal's office that day was not Charles. Several minutes after the hov left Villa Mare Vista, and was well out of sight, was destroyed. We also changed time for a short period to find Charles signing the order, then switched back.

I'm not sure we can surmise that the Icarian was not Charles. I'm not saying it was but just that since the hov is destroyed out of sight of anyone we know of who was watching, almost anything could have happened within even 3 minutes. Look how fast Renaud lands and restarts his hov while dropping off Jamie at the power generator! We also do not know if the Icarian in Croal's office was the pilot of the hov or if he had another person in the hov acting as pilot.

All we know is that Jamie saw a Red & Black Icarian entering a hov, then the hov taking off immediately. The flight back to Kuronos would have taken over an hour which gives ample time for someone to have landed, gotten out of the hov, put the hov back into the air or changed hovs mid-trip. Conspiricy theory I know, but isn't this what the Empire is best at?

This is one other incident that has Jamie.wri signature written all over it as a huge unsolvable puzzle designed to keep us wondering.

cheers,

dioscuri

Yes I pointed out some time ago reference to this incident that hovs could be pre-programmed to fly.

Also I am not sure that we saw Charles sign the order to destroy the hov, I won't look as I am determined not to re-read anything until the final edit arrives. I only recall him reluctantly giving the order to raid Villa Mare Vista when Loka intervened and Croal was murdered.

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TalonRider    1
Slowly pulling the cap off the pen, the ühn•ki once more read the document he was about to sign. Placing pen to paper, the ühn•ki stopped and Darion was surprised to see his leader's hand shake slightly, but the tremor lasted for only a second. Carefully, the ühn•ki signed his name in the delicate, elaborate cursive fashion that marked his distinctive style of writing, also copied from an earlier era. Returning the cap to the pen and placing it back in the desk drawer, his eyes scanned the document for a third time before he picked it up and handed it back to Darion.
As he made the trip back down the long gallery he knew that his very first action when he returned to his office would be to formally contact the Prince of Imperialas Savaron Loka, while Paulus, following Darion's orders, would call up a 'toon of Imperial shock troops and immediately dispatch them to the tip of Isewier and Villa Mare Vista, the home of the retired Gold Glass scientist Edmond Croal. Looking down at the bottom of the paper, he saw a bloody fingerprint and a few smudges of the ühn•ki's blood next to his leaders neatly signed signature:

Charles Roegier.

This is what we have on the signing of the document.

We also have this on the destruction of the hov.

As the tiny craft lifted off, Jamie, standing on the skywalk, watched it ascend into the sky. So too did Edmond Croal from his study. From two different locations in the villa, both Croal and his son stood watching the craft until it flew out of sight. What would have surprised both of them, had they been able to continue to follow the hov's progress, was how suddenly twenty minutes after its departure from Villa Mare Vista, it vanished from existence, blown from the sky by a battery of ghoster cannon from an imperial battle hov.

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pietro    1
Slowly pulling the cap off the pen, the ühn•ki once more read the document he was about to sign. Placing pen to paper, the ühn•ki stopped and Darion was surprised to see his leader's hand shake slightly, but the tremor lasted for only a second. Carefully, the ühn•ki signed his name in the delicate, elaborate cursive fashion that marked his distinctive style of writing, also copied from an earlier era. Returning the cap to the pen and placing it back in the desk drawer, his eyes scanned the document for a third time before he picked it up and handed it back to Darion.
As he made the trip back down the long gallery he knew that his very first action when he returned to his office would be to formally contact the Prince of Imperialas Savaron Loka, while Paulus, following Darion's orders, would call up a 'toon of Imperial shock troops and immediately dispatch them to the tip of Isewier and Villa Mare Vista, the home of the retired Gold Glass scientist Edmond Croal. Looking down at the bottom of the paper, he saw a bloody fingerprint and a few smudges of the ühn•ki's blood next to his leaders neatly signed signature:

Charles Roegier.

This is what we have on the signing of the document.

We also have this on the destruction of the hov.

As the tiny craft lifted off, Jamie, standing on the skywalk, watched it ascend into the sky. So too did Edmond Croal from his study. From two different locations in the villa, both Croal and his son stood watching the craft until it flew out of sight. What would have surprised both of them, had they been able to continue to follow the hov's progress, was how suddenly twenty minutes after its departure from Villa Mare Vista, it vanished from existence, blown from the sky by a battery of ghoster cannon from an imperial battle hov.

Well, yes, but those events aren't linked. As I recall, the destruction of the hov after visiting Croal was a long time before Charles signed the warrant that initiated the raid on villa Mare Vista and Croal's death.

What is more interesting is that the hov was destroyed by an imperial battle hov, the assumption being it was destroyed because it was known by the empire to be involved in no good. However, if there had been suspicions about what the hov visiting Croal had been doing I doubt the empire would have simply shot it down, every effort would have been made to secure those on board in a suitable condition for questioning. More likely this was a cover up to destroy evidence, or possibly someone compromised, or maybe for another reason altogether. If this was an official act of the empire the persons ordering the destruction of the hov and its supposed passengers could have known nothing about its journey and the visit to Croal, if they had the game would have been up at that point. The empire wasn't too worried about having proof, suspicion alone would be enough to act, especially against someone outside the sphere of power as Croal certainly was. However, if it wasn't the empire behind it then those giving the order probably did know what it had been doing and didn't want anyone else to know, which points to one of the resistance groups, most likely the one Charles was leading.

Interesting. I wonder if it will ever be explained.

Edited by pietro

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dioscuri    0

We do know Charles had a mate at one point, but I think the big questions is, were they a mating pair? If they weren't, that could explain why he doesn't appear to suffer disunion. The rose bush in his garden was set up as memorial to his partner. What makes me think of this comes from one of the chapters after Christophe's death where Jamie finds out from one of the Trio that he loved Christophe and he refused to mate due to being in the chair.

I do not believe that it is possible for an Icarian to mate and not be a mating pair. This is designed into them genetically and not the result of a legal agreement, so the existance of an Intention to Mate document may not force the mating, it could prevent one like the one between Hippolito and Jamie!

Jonathan could be Charles brother biologically, or in an adopted from. Jonathan could also be from the experimentation that was done on vision which failed, but had an unusual side effect in which he was still able to see, just differently from everyone else. We've seen this demonstrated in Book 1 during Nic's birthday celebration.

Perhaps Gold Glass was trying to enhance the Red and Blacks and Jonathan was the end result.

If he is biologically Charles brother it is by design. Johnathan is most certainly NOT an experiment gone wrong, he was planned for by Jonas when he planned the Icarian project, since we know from his diaries the characteristics of the Oracle and that he would have a tattoo around his arm which could be revealed only in the presence of the true Wizard if Icarua, Johnathan has this tattoo, accidentally discovered one day when Jamie was with Johnathan and Luke in the Amber Palace, then shown to the Icrian Council of Noble Houses by Jamie when he appointed him Oracle. The tattoo doesn't appear because Jamie puts it there, it was designed into Johnathan by his creators.

That he is Charles' brother may also be the reason why Charles is able to fight dis-union. Not only is Johnathan entrusted to his care but also Charles is to guide the new Icarian race after resurrection.

It also seems that the Icarian rite of union is a well known secret. The core of the ceremony is in Chapter 37:

The words of the gladiator were simple and direct: There you are, here I am. They were, in essence, the oath that formed the core of the Avionne mating ceremony. Spoken first by one half of the future whole, they were plain and unpretentious, yet they were the most powerfully intimate words any Avionne could say to another.

"Taer tá mé, aer tá tú." Niklas gently repeated the short and simple phrase. But it was the look that he gave Jamie that spoke of the profound depth of trust and love that the phrase represented. Then the shyest of smiles came to the gladiator's face. The sight caused Jamie's hearts to pound excitedly.

The response, to be spoken by the other half of the future whole, was equally simple and profound.

Jamie's eyes sparkled and Nic, staring into them, felt as he were standing under a star-filled sky watching the most intense fusillade of fireworks he'd ever experienced. The amazing, breathtaking smile Jamie beamed back at him was the brightest thing Niklas had ever seen. It lit up Jamie's beautiful face and warmed Nic's heart. Reaching out, the prince's small, perfectly formed hand clasped that of the gladiator firmly. The tightness of Jamie's grip surprised Nic. It bespoke strength and conviction.

"Synne flona te•torré." Jamie confidently replied. "We fly together.

My guess is that this ceremony was known by many Icarians and likely Cody and Lance spoke these words to each other. It is also likely that Cody himself wrote them since he wrote all the other ceremonial scripts we have come across to date.

Niklas and Jamie seem to know that they are supposed to be together because as Nicklas says to Julius " .... its like he fits exactly a part of me that is missing!". So ceremony or not, there is something about the biology of the two that belong together,

cheers

dioscuri

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TalonRider    1

How Jonathan came into being, we may never know unless it comes in a future chapter.

Of course, the identity of the Oracle was kept secret to protect him. Not even Hippolito knew it and imagine his surprise that there is now two Red and Blacks that are now the head of a House.

I'm thinking more in the lines of partnerships formed by Icarians. In our society, we have couples who have been together for years and consider themselves partners. Some places now allow it legally. Remember, Jamie includes a lot of different issues in today's society into this story.

Niklas and Jamie seem to know that they are supposed to be together because as Nicklas says to Julius " .... its like he fits exactly a part of me that is missing!". So ceremony or not, there is something about the biology of the two that belong together,

I think this was engineered into them, besides what was already there. We know from the history lessons we've had that Agramos loved de Valen, but never acted upon it. We know that Edmond Croal created Jamie and Charlie, so whoever created Niklas von Agramon, also created Giovanni and Jamie is the only one who knows Giovanni really is. No one knows who sent him to the school to eventually meet up with Jamie.

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pietro    1

How Jonathan came into being, we may never know unless it comes in a future chapter.

Of course, the identity of the Oracle was kept secret to protect him. Not even Hippolito knew it and imagine his surprise that there is now two Red and Blacks that are now the head of a House.

I'm thinking more in the lines of partnerships formed by Icarians. In our society, we have couples who have been together for years and consider themselves partners. Some places now allow it legally. Remember, Jamie includes a lot of different issues in today's society into this story.

Niklas and Jamie seem to know that they are supposed to be together because as Nicklas says to Julius " .... its like he fits exactly a part of me that is missing!". So ceremony or not, there is something about the biology of the two that belong together,

I think this was engineered into them, besides what was already there. We know from the history lessons we've had that Agramos loved de Valen, but never acted upon it. We know that Edmond Croal created Jamie and Charlie, so whoever created Niklas von Agramon, also created Giovanni and Jamie is the only one who knows Giovanni really is. No one knows who sent him to the school to eventually meet up with Jamie.

I think from what we have seen so far Icarians are generally randy and promiscuous as well as generally friendly so all kinds of partnership up to a full bond is possible. The bond I think is something different, more on the level of a Vulcan (a la star trek) bond, a permanent mental joining where the participants can almost share one consciousness, sharing a soul or however you want to put it. It is the tearing of this bond that causes disunion and potential suicide. But as I said before, sufficient need or responsibility could overcome it to some extent.

As to origins, from all we have read so far we can fairly assume Croal created Niklas, Giovanni and probably Jonathan. Why? Because all of these have non-standard, or maybe special would be a better word, DNA. We also know that he created Charles because Charles was the first icarian.

Who smuggled these boys into their respective niches, Niklas the Gahdar, Giovanni service and expedition at the Mondele and Jonathan who knows where? My betting is on the Farzetti. Although they have little mention in Jamie.wri's work so far, it is obvious they played a very important role behind the scenes. In fact I would guess that they were Croal's principal conspirators, giving him tentacles into every level of the empire.

Happy new year to one and all.

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dioscuri    0

How Jonathan came into being, we may never know unless it comes in a future chapter.

Of course, the identity of the Oracle was kept secret to protect him. Not even Hippolito knew it and imagine his surprise that there is now two Red and Blacks that are now the head of a House.

I'm thinking more in the lines of partnerships formed by Icarians. In our society, we have couples who have been together for years and consider themselves partners. Some places now allow it legally. Remember, Jamie includes a lot of different issues in today's society into this story.

I think this was engineered into them, besides what was already there. We know from the history lessons we've had that Agramos loved de Valen, but never acted upon it. We know that Edmond Croal created Jamie and Charlie, so whoever created Niklas von Agramon, also created Giovanni and Jamie is the only one who knows Giovanni really is. No one knows who sent him to the school to eventually meet up with Jamie.

It is one of the Black brothers that delivers the tooth from the Agramos tomb directly to Croal. I doubt that he would have allowed anyone but himself to create the Icarian embryo that became Nicklas. We know that Giovanni is a Royal Throne. We also know that Jamie as you have said, would be the only one to know who Giovanni is.

The only clue we have is that when Jamie saw the results of the DNA scan of Giovanni confirming he was a Royal Throne he gasped in surprise at something he saw. We also know that Jamie had seen and kept a copy of the DNA map of Nicklas (or perhaps it was of Agromos), but I am guessing that Jamie's reaction is because the DNA from Giovanni matches that of Agromos enough that he would be directly and closely related to Nicklas even though they are completely different personalities.

I think from what we have seen so far Icarians are generally randy and promiscuous as well as generally friendly so all kinds of partnership up to a full bond is possible.

We do? I think all we have is rumor and innuendo. We know that all the rumours about Jamie and his affairs are false, we also know that all the rumours about Nicklas are also false. That proves that there are some good gossip mongers in Kuronos. In Jamie's case it is the Impressario's office that encourages those rumours. In fact, aside from the comments made in the Bronze Interlude where the Ghadar are camped outside of the city in which Loran's army is ensconced, we have nothing. There, all we have is wolf whistles and comments on what might be fun. Assuming what you propose is like saying that the Americanized version of "Queer as Folk" is an accurate representation of how gay men acted in the 1980's, when I know that it isn't. Most of that series is about the myth of what gay society is like. Its to bad people actually believe it.

We know something about relationships that were made then torn apart because the pair were separated when they were sent or bought by different Dukes or Barrons. That is part of the discussion with Trio Chrysialis about Christophe. All that talk is about trying to avoid disunion when a mated pair were forceably separated.

The bond I think is something different, more on the level of a Vulcan (a la star trek) bond, a permanent mental joining where the participants can almost share one consciousness, sharing a soul or however you want to put it. It is the tearing of this bond that causes disunion and potential suicide. But as I said before, sufficient need or responsibility could overcome it to some extent.

I think it ii is a better idea to look closer to home and closer to biology her on earth. Macaw s. for instance, mate for life. Some species of Geese also mate for life.

As to origins, from all we have read so far we can fairly assume Croal created Niklas, Giovanni and probably Jonathan. Why? Because all of these have non-standard, or maybe special would be a better word, DNA. We also know that he created Charles because Charles was the first icarian.

I think the Icarian project as conceived by Croal and Jonas of Amodon was a subversive project from the beginning. From Croal's point of view it was a way of making up for the creation of the Kalorians which ultimately became a slave race. The Empire is attempting to do the same with the Icarirans, However, because of Croal and Jonas belief in the concept of complexity, the Icarian race is quite unpredictable. Some things are sort of hard wired, not much though. Everything except resistance to disease and inteligence is left up to the roll of the dice. Even the creation of Charlie and Jamie from the same DNA, didn't make two of the same Icarians.

Who smuggled these boys into their respective niches, Niklas the Gahdar, Giovanni service and expedition at the Mondele and Jonathan who knows where? My betting is on the Farzetti. Although they have little mention in Jamie.wri's work so far, it is obvious they played a very important role behind the scenes. In fact I would guess that they were Croal's principal conspirators, giving him tentacles into every level of the empire.

Croal knew about other conspiritors, but only enough to get what he wanted done. The reason that any revolution in that Empire worked was because they didn't know about each other. If one failed, another one was there to fill in the gap somehow.Also, remember that the Kalorians are the slaves and the servants of the Empire, they are always there in the background and assumed to be invisible, which enables them to do things like move Castor around the Empire until he's working at the Mondale. So moving Gioivani in place in Expedition and Service would not be beyond the capability of the Kalorian conspiricy.

Who ever from the Empire (like Savaron Loka), or even Hippolito, who attempted to interfere and control the Icarians was in for a big surprise. Genetically they are as surprising as any new species we might find here on earth.

cheers,

dioscuri

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pietro    1

It is one of the Black brothers that delivers the tooth from the Agramos tomb directly to Croal. I doubt that he would have allowed anyone but himself to create the Icarian embryo that became Nicklas. We know that Giovanni is a Royal Throne. We also know that Jamie as you have said, would be the only one to know who Giovanni is.

The only clue we have is that when Jamie saw the results of the DNA scan of Giovanni confirming he was a Royal Throne he gasped in surprise at something he saw. We also know that Jamie had seen and kept a copy of the DNA map of Nicklas (or perhaps it was of Agromos), but I am guessing that Jamie's reaction is because the DNA from Giovanni matches that of Agromos enough that he would be directly and closely related to Nicklas even though they are completely different personalities.

We know no one else could create an Icarian from scratch. We have been told categorically that Croal kept the secret of their creation to himself, others working on the Avionne project could only tinker with the genetics of Croal created embryos or maybe pre-embryos. Thus the likes of Jamie and Niklas must have been engineered by Croal.

I think from what we have seen so far Icarians are generally randy and promiscuous as well as generally friendly so all kinds of partnership up to a full bond is possible.

We do? I think all we have is rumor and innuendo. We know that all the rumours about Jamie and his affairs are false, we also know that all the rumours about Nicklas are also false. That proves that there are some good gossip mongers in Kuronos. In Jamie's case it is the Impressario's office that encourages those rumours. In fact, aside from the comments made in the Bronze Interlude where the Ghadar are camped outside of the city in which Loran's army is ensconced, we have nothing. There, all we have is wolf whistles and comments on what might be fun. Assuming what you propose is like saying that the Americanized version of "Queer as Folk" is an accurate representation of how gay men acted in the 1980's, when I know that it isn't. Most of that series is about the myth of what gay society is like. Its to bad people actually believe it.

We know something about relationships that were made then torn apart because the pair were separated when they were sent or bought by different Dukes or Barrons. That is part of the discussion with Trio Chrysialis about Christophe. All that talk is about trying to avoid disunion when a mated pair were forceably separated.

The bond I think is something different, more on the level of a Vulcan (a la star trek) bond, a permanent mental joining where the participants can almost share one consciousness, sharing a soul or however you want to put it. It is the tearing of this bond that causes disunion and potential suicide. But as I said before, sufficient need or responsibility could overcome it to some extent.

I think it ii is a better idea to look closer to home and closer to biology her on earth. Macaw s. for instance, mate for life. Some species of Geese also mate for life.

Don't agree. Several species mate for life and some will even pine to death after but they don't share a soul as 'mated' Icarians do. I think there is a bit of semantics involved here, a confusion with simple sexual mating and a much more intense bonding both using the term 'mate'.

As to origins, from all we have read so far we can fairly assume Croal created Niklas, Giovanni and probably Jonathan. Why? Because all of these have non-standard, or maybe special would be a better word, DNA. We also know that he created Charles because Charles was the first icarian.

I think the Icarian project as conceived by Croal and Jonas of Amodon was a subversive project from the beginning. From Croal's point of view it was a way of making up for the creation of the Kalorians which ultimately became a slave race. The Empire is attempting to do the same with the Icarirans, However, because of Croal and Jonas belief in the concept of complexity, the Icarian race is quite unpredictable. Some things are sort of hard wired, not much though. Everything except resistance to disease and inteligence is left up to the roll of the dice. Even the creation of Charlie and Jamie from the same DNA, didn't make two of the same Icarians.

Again I don't see it that way, for normal Icarians, yes, but Jamie and Niklas and Charlie, and probably Jonathan and Giovanni, all the evidence is for very careful and precise engineering of specific traits and abilities.

Who smuggled these boys into their respective niches, Niklas the Gahdar, Giovanni service and expedition at the Mondele and Jonathan who knows where? My betting is on the Farzetti. Although they have little mention in Jamie.wri's work so far, it is obvious they played a very important role behind the scenes. In fact I would guess that they were Croal's principal conspirators, giving him tentacles into every level of the empire.

Croal knew about other conspiritors, but only enough to get what he wanted done. The reason that any revolution in that Empire worked was because they didn't know about each other. If one failed, another one was there to fill in the gap somehow.Also, remember that the Kalorians are the slaves and the servants of the Empire, they are always there in the background and assumed to be invisible, which enables them to do things like move Castor around the Empire until he's working at the Mondale. So moving Gioivani in place in Expedition and Service would not be beyond the capability of the Kalorian conspiricy.

Who ever from the Empire (like Savaron Loka), or even Hippolito, who attempted to interfere and control the Icarians was in for a big surprise. Genetically they are as surprising as any new species we might find here on earth.

My money is still on the Farzetti as the central conspirators.

Well, we can't be expected to all agree. The greatest advantage the written word has over film is that we all interpret what we read differently. One person will see something fundamentally significant where another will see nothing and vice versa.

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TalonRider    1

Early in part 2 of book 2 we are given a clue that there is another Agramon. Jamie finds that hidden file about Nic. As he's about to close it, he see's some information about another. It's toward the end of his first meeting with Giovanni, that he picks up on something from him. Later on, he gets a sample of Giovanni's blood and later gives it Stephan to be analyzed, which confirms who he is.

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dioscuri    0

Early in part 2 of book 2 we are given a clue that there is another Agramon. Jamie finds that hidden file about Nic. As he's about to close it, he see's some information about another. It's toward the end of his first meeting with Giovanni, that he picks up on something from him. Later on, he gets a sample of Giovanni's blood and later gives it Stephan to be analyzed, which confirms who he is.

Very nicely put! While the sample of Giovanni's blood does confirm who he is, all we are actually told (by Perkengius) is that he is a Royal Throne. We can guess from Jamie's reaction when he checks it against information he's stored from the 'net that he is much more than what Perkengius stated. Jamie never actually says anything at all about what he knows. All we have is his startled and happy reaction to whatever was actually revealed to him.

Another of the author's (Jamie.wri) cagey slight of hand as a writer, implying something, but not actually saying it. We have no idea other than guesses at what Jamie found when he compared that data. Personally I think Giovanni was created from some of the original Agromon DNA, but its really only just a guess at this point.

You see, we have been turned into not much better that poorly informed gossips exchanging guesses and using those guesses as real information, when we have no real basis for making that jump. These guesses are all lapses in logic.

I've pointed that out before, but its in the information lost when that back-up failed.

As to why Giovanni turned up at the Mondale Royal, its anyone's guess. It could be pure chance or it could be by design. Making a guess is throwing those loaded dice that have been put in play. The likelyhood that our strings are being pulled and we are being manipulated on a grand scale are very high indeed!

Should he be another Agromon Icarian, he is surely not the warior that Nic is, he is as different as night and day to King Niklas!

In other words, its anyone's guess at this point, until we have more information.

cheers,

dioscuri

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TalonRider    1

We know that Jamie and Charlie are different from each other, so it would stand to reason that Niklas and Giovanni would be different as well. It would appear that our list of brothers is growing. We have Jamie and Charlie, Miro and David, Charles and Jonathan, and quite possibly Niklas and Giovanni.

We know that Charles was the first Icarian created by Edmond Croal. We also know that he was allowed to grow and age like a normal human. This probably means that he was subjected to lots of testing and observation as he grew up.

During my multiple readings, I've come across some clues that tends to lead me to suspect that Charles does not have any human DNA in him. In Book 2 in one of the conversations that Castor and Jamie have about Edmond, we learn that Edmond asked for a sample of blood and a swab. Then we have this clue in book 2 where Castor gives Jamie and Charlie that thin lipped expression indicating he's not to happy with them.

Then back in book 1 we have Charles giving the same exact look from time to time during the Circle of Jonas. This tends to make me think that Charles is part Kalorian and possibly related to Castor to be showing the same expression.

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pietro    1
This tends to make me think that Charles is part Kalorian and possibly related to Castor to be showing the same expression.

Interesting speculation there. I have not re-read the series yet, other things have got in the way, however, I have always assumed the Kalorians were simply genetically modified humans, i.e. they are 'human', only the attempts to breed plague resistance encouraged Croal to try and splice cross-species genes into a basically human genome. That said, it is more than likely that Croal would have used a Kalorian template as it would obviously be one he knew in depth. In fact it is reasonable that ALL Icarians, except our heros, were Kalorian/Ghroum crosses.

I will bear this in mind when I do get the time to do a re-read.

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samwise    0

I believe that Jonas was Charles' mate. Also that disunion took place and Charles used physical pain to help him fight the madness that comes with disunion.

From Book 2, Part 2, Chapter 18 when Darion Trapp, the tat ühn•ki, enters Charles' office he finds:

"ühn•ki?" the Icarian once again called and then stood silently waiting, knowing better than to interrupt again. He hadn't spent much time with the ühn•ki in the last month, and in the past few days had become a bit concerned about his leader's sudden isolation.

It was then that Darion noticed the slender boy had his right hand wrapped around the wrist of his left arm, and it appeared to the tat ühn•ki that the ühn•ki's fingernails were digging fiercely into his own wrist. When he looked more closely and saw blood trickling down the ühn•ki's hand, he realized it was more than just appearance.

I don't think that Jamie ever met Charles in the earlier time line. His antipathy towards Charles is likely because he knows that it was Charles that authorized the raid on Villa Mare Vista and believes that he ordered the killing of Croal. I doubt that he knows that Loka took over the raid without Charles's knowledge and told Darion Trapp to stay out of it, he would take care of it.

I'm not sure that Charles, in his isolation and in his fight against the madness of disunion, was aware of just how much of the Sh'ônfenn had been subverted to his own purpose by Loka. Did you notice that of the 12 Red and Black that we know survived, only Charles sided with Jamie and Nic and how surprised he was that the other 11 didn't. The 11 that went with Hippolito were evidently Loka loyalist. As was Geoffrey of Batwig. Although, he may just been miffed that he was passed over for elevation to prince.

Anyway it should all become clear once we get to Part 4 and the end of a very long cliffhanger.

TomasG

Since Jonas was human, he couldn't have been Charles's mate. Please see my thought's about Charles's age at the wiki

http://scrolls-of-icaria.wikia.com/wiki/Charles

Edited by samwise

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TalonRider    1

It could just be an asumption on the readers part that Charles mate's name was Jonas. But then again he could have been.

We do know that some humans like to use Icarians. Remember Jamie was almost raped twice. Renaud was one of the Icarians that preferred females and the only females available were human and Kalorian.

Charles mate could have been human so the bond formed might not be as strong as the Icarian mating bond which might explain how he's been able to maintain better control than Loran.

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Ricky    1

It's also possible that Charles commited his bond to Jamie and it was rebuffed by Croal or some other entity because there were plans for Jamie and he wasn't part of it. The bonding details are not clear. SO we don't know if it is a bond caused by intellect or something more physical. Especially back then when the race and the DNA manipulation was in it's infancy.

Let's not forget that there are other worlds out there to that will surely affect the story when they come into play. That's relavent because Charles could have damaged the satalites in an attempt to wait for the authority to pass on making Jamie's affections open to him to try and break the bond between him and Nick. Perhaps that's why the memory loss was so intense. Charles could have altered something or kept them from dosing with the darroot so their minds might be manipulated when they were awakened.

There are so many questions and only one person with the answers.

GRRRR!

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TalonRider    1

The satellite situation was explained in the last Interlude. A comet that passes the planet every so many years made its pass and did some damage. With no one to send repair commands to the satellite system, they did the best they could to affect repairs per their programing.

When it comes to Darroot Tea for Jamie and Nic, they are told there is none to give them when they go into stasis. How do we know if it was Charles or Castor who gave the order not to give them any. If it was Castor, could he have done it to try to prevent Jamie from remembering the bad things that happened to him over the years.

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pietro    1

When it comes to Darroot Tea for Jamie and Nic, they are told there is none to give them when they go into stasis. How do we know if it was Charles or Castor who gave the order not to give them any. If it was Castor, could he have done it to try to prevent Jamie from remembering the bad things that happened to him over the years.

It is clear as I have commented before that there were several resistance movements, some that collaborated, some that did not. So perhaps there simply was none available. We know that Charles and those placed in stasis at Eagle Rock had the tea and that that place had been very professionally prepared by Charles while most of the other places had been prepared by the Kalorian Second Empire, likely completely independently of Charles, and done in the greatest secrecy. We know Daroot was very difficult to get hold of and the whole evacuation/stasis thing kicked off completely unexpectedly and chaotically and well before all the preparations other than those under Charles' control, had been completed.

I expect the next chapter would have answered several of the outstanding questions as Jamie and Nic had all their memories recovered by that point, although it is clear that Jamie did not know much about the Kalorian preparations anyway.

Anyway, it looks increasingly as if we will never know now. Pity.

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TalonRider    1

So it would seem that anyone who wasn't taken to Eagles Rock to be placed in stasis did not receive Darroot Tea. This includes Cody, Lance, and the Twins. We also know that Jamie and Nic were supposed to have been at Eagles Rock as Charles has said that they didn't make it there.

This next part, I'm going to move over to the protected forum for discussion..

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