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dioscuri

The Origins of the Vosh

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We've never truly discussed this topic because there's never been enough evidence to say much of anything. Now we have some, but just a little.

  1. We know the 7 and 81 are the 781 children or younger people who were saved during the night of flight.
  2. We've seen older Kalorians dressed in grey coats running the the Kalorian part of the operation.
  3. We know the Emperor is dead and so is a good part of his idea to move to Argon..
  4. We know the empire is in a sort of disarray, obviously not expecting the kind of battle they had to fight. imagine being a battle hov pilot and having to fight or shoot at one of those small tiny moving targets (the Ghadar) when you're used to shooting at larger objects and your weapons are made for destroying larger objects. I wonder how many battle hovs were destroyed when a Ghadar duet duped two hovs into shooting each other down. Remember, this is part of the battle which Niklas *knew* in advance they'd be fighting and where Master Saki's training would have been crucial.
  5. Taldor Valoron is now cut off. Where will the living Kalorians go? The Ardentin forest is the obvious place.

This is really just a flash of logic, and probably flawed to some extent, but now the origin of the Vache may make more sense. There is ONE last thing. Remember that the Vache know about the scar that Hippolito gave Jamie and where it is on his body. The night of flight is how they knew. He was naked from the waist up for much of this episode --- that's where that legend and part of the prophecy came from.

Remember as well, the Kalorian League are resident at Domain Carolus not in Taldor Valoron.

Lets continue down this thread until its finally revealed who and where the Vache really came from.

cheers,

dioscuri

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The origins of the Voshconnan or Vosh was brought up in one of the un-recovered threads that accidentally got deleted. My thought at the time was that they were the descendants of prisoners that either escaped or were rescued from Stone Gate Prison. The reason that I came to that, now known to be erroneous, conclusion was the robes that the leaders of the Vosh wore matched, with the exception of the length, the jackets that were the standard garb of the prisoners. Chapter 43 changed that perspective because we now know that the tortured and maimed prisoners sacrificed their lives to protect the Gahdar.

I don't think that it is too far out of line to speculate that some of the adults along with some of the children (perhaps some of the adult relatives and/or children of the Kalorian prisoners from Stone Gate Prison) moved on out of the valley, at some point in time, into the Ardentin Forest and it is their descendants that make up the current population of the Vosh. And that they originally adapted the prison jacket as the robe of the leaders out of respect and in remembrance of those prisoners. I rather doubt it, but perhaps that part of their history had been lost and they are no longer aware of the significance of the robes that the leaders wear. The robes themselves and the Legends and Prophecy of the Protector may be all that remain. Castor was wearing a prison jacket and he was not one of the maimed prisoners. He was still healthy and whole and was at Angels Falls. We really do not know for sure his fate.

As to the 7081 Kalorians that made it through the gate to Taldor Valoren. I believe that the children, "the greatest treasures and resources of the Second Empire" made up the 7000, or the bulk of it, and the 81 were the adults that went through the gate with and after the children. The Kalorians' knew, in their wisdom,that the children were the future of their race and determined that to save them was the prudent thing to do. They also were wise enough to know that they needed some adults to oversee and insure their survival.

[an aside]

Who and what the 7 and 81 were has kind of nagged at me since the first time that they were mentioned. It sounded like there were two separate entities, 7 of this and 81 of that, but when I saw that it was a way of referring to the 7081 who passed through the gate it triggered a memory. I remember that often the way my Grandparents used numbers or more specifically dates they would do so in a like manner. ie. The date 1898 would likely be referred to as 18 and 98. We do something similar even today the difference is the 'and' has been dropped.ie. The year 2010 is spoken either two thousand ten or that which is similar to the above... twenty ten.

[end aside]

Now for the Kalorian League. The last people to pass through the gate, after all the children had passed, were members of the Kalorean League. The last person was one of the Founders of the Kalorian League, Catha Savetta. But I am of the opinion that it was part of the plan for members of the Kalorian League to move the cryo units that the Gahdar used to the valley of Domain Carollus. Since the League was/is composed of both male and female I think that is safe to assume that the current League is made up of the descendants of those Kalorians. I believe that it was a part of the plan (we have never been privy to the whole plan) for the Gahdar, if they survived, to make their way to Domain Carollus to sleep in stasis for what was supposed to be 100 years.

TomasG

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Good catch on the scar Dioscuri.

Perhaps T can edit the thread title, Origins of the Cow is not very flattering to Jamie.wri :lol:

On to the points you raise.

# We've seen older Kalorians dressed in grey coats running the Kalorian part of the operation. Maybe grey coats are the 'uniform' of the Kalorian League. Interesting that grey is nondescript and easily overlooked, especially when the Kalorians favoured bright colours. However, for an escape grey would be a good choice for everyone.

# We know the Emperor is dead and so is a good part of his idea to move to Argon. Ah no, Savaron Loka is the man in charge, both of the project and, we can reasonably assume, now the government, so at this point the evacuation to Argon is unaffected. Obviously subsequent actions may change this, obviously something did change as even the collaborators among the Icarian 'royals' did not go. And in Jamie's own words earlier, more or less, 'things got a bit hectic at the end'.

# We know the empire is in a sort of disarray, obviously not expecting the kind of battle they had to fight. Imagine being a battle hov pilot and having to fight or shoot at one of those small tiny moving targets (the Ghadar) when you're used to shooting at larger objects and your weapons are made for destroying larger objects. I wonder how many battle hovs were destroyed when a Ghadar duet duped two hovs into shooting each other down. Remember, this is part of the battle which Niklas *knew* in advance they'd be fighting and where Master Saki's training would have been crucial. Sorry, your logic is way off there ;) Even with the Emperor dead I doubt the Empire is in disarray, current events are more of an irritation as Loka implied speaking to Jamie as he was captured. If you are in a small, bare room and I shoot at you I could easily miss, if I lob a grenade in you are dead. And the Gahdar are experts at hand to hand fighting and, I grant you, tactics, but they are not trained as soldiery and must have been severely disadvantaged in this, but they did have the assistance of a large contingent of the Kalorian League, how many that was we do not know.

# Taldor Valoron is now cut off. Where will the living Kalorians go? The Ardentin forest is the obvious place. Very difficult to speculate at the moment, perhaps the anti-Kalorian virus never gets released, or is only partially released, perhaps the Kalorian League had some stasis units set aside for their own use, after all we now know Jamie left the saving of all loyal Icarians in Kalorian hands. As Tomasg suggested, perhaps some left Taldor Valoren after the barrier shut down. Maybe the virus wasn't 100% fatal or never even reached some outlying or remote areas.

Still a lot to learn and not much book left, so perhaps we will have to wait for book three to answer some of the questions. Of course, if one reads book 2 before book 1 then a great deal more will make sense. Maybe I'll do that. No offence to Jamie.wri, but I really do not like mystery stories.

Edited by pietro

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I don't think the barrier has been activated yet. Jamie did instruct someone on how to do it. I don't think the Empire would be in too big of a hurry to go after the Kalorians in Taldor Valoren. Why waste the time, there are plan's to eliminate the race anyway.

I think the Vosh are of Kalorian descent and over time have changed, or forgotten some things and evolved into their own culture.

There are so many groups with plans, who'd to say it wasn't Charles who had the Gahdar taken to Domain Carollus, tho I do think his main concern was getting the Princes all to Eagles Rock, at least those for freedom. I think it's safe to say that that didn't make to status or even survived it, weren't part of it.

# Taldor Valoron is now cut off. Where will the living Kalorians go? The Ardentin forest is the obvious place. Very difficult to speculate at the moment, perhaps the anti-Kalorian virus never gets released, or is only partially released, perhaps the Kalorian League had some stasis units set aside for their own use, after all we now know Jamie left the saving of all loyal Icarians in Kalorian hands. As Tomasg suggested, perhaps some left Taldor Valoren after the barrier shut down. Maybe the virus wasn't 100% fatal or never even reached some outlying or remote areas.

Interesting point here. The Barrier was only set for 100 years. At which point, some of those in the valley could have left to explore and check things out. Something could have affected them.

This now also brings up another question, if the barrier was only to last for 100 years, why is there still a barrier in place? Is it the same one, or a different one. I have to wonder of Jamie set up a second one to protect the area around the Tower of Agramon knowing what he knows about it, it's possible.

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I don't think the barrier has been activated yet. Jamie did instruct someone on how to do it. I don't think the Empire would be in too big of a hurry to go after the Kalorians in Taldor Valoren. Why waste the time, there are plan's to eliminate the race anyway

...................

This now also brings up another question, if the barrier was only to last for 100 years, why is there still a barrier in place? Is it the same one, or a different one. I have to wonder of Jamie set up a second one to protect the area around the Tower of Agramon knowing what he knows about it, it's possible.

True we don't know if those in Taldor Valoren activated the barrier or not, I rather think they would have as it was part of the measures to protect their children.

We know it isn't the same one protecting Altinestra, I suspect Jamie sets that one up at another time before they enter stasis, no doubt there will be an answer in the next instalment as that is rather a crucial feature in the story. Although I suppose it is possible, not likely, but possible, Jamie and the others were in stasis for 100 years, woke up, found everything still in turmoil, blocked off Altinestra and went back for another couple of thousand years :lol:

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I don't think the barrier has been activated yet. Jamie did instruct someone on how to do it. I don't think the Empire would be in too big of a hurry to go after the Kalorians in Taldor Valoren. Why waste the time, there are plan's to eliminate the race anyway

...................

This now also brings up another question, if the barrier was only to last for 100 years, why is there still a barrier in place? Is it the same one, or a different one. I have to wonder of Jamie set up a second one to protect the area around the Tower of Agramon knowing what he knows about it, it's possible.

True we don't know if those in Taldor Valoren activated the barrier or not, I rather think they would have as it was part of the measures to protect their children.

We know it isn't the same one protecting Altinestra, I suspect Jamie sets that one up at another time before they enter stasis, no doubt there will be an answer in the next instalment as that is rather a crucial feature in the story. Although I suppose it is possible, not likely, but possible, Jamie and the others were in stasis for 100 years, woke up, found everything still in turmoil, blocked off Altinestra and went back for another couple of thousand years :lol:

Read the page on the Orbs, there is some fascinating information there. There is information which implies the creator of the orbs or the programming inside the orbs *knew* and understood the encrypted data on the Monastery of Infinity.

I'm going out on another tangent here. No one knows who created and built the Monastery or the Tower of Agromon. Who named them that and why? The Tower of Agromon is so high that it reaches above the clouds frequently. To me it seems as if it is a broadcast centre of some sort or a control centre.

There is also the issue of who the Ghroum's Guadajeir was, what his purpose was and why he failed at what he was to do. All we know is that this Guardageir did not fulfill his mission. I get the impression that there is some unknown consequences for a guardajeir who fails in his duty. Perhaps this is why the Empire attempted genocide as a solution.

I'll take another guess, the fact that the Ghroum only communicate well telepathically, and that their facial and body expressions do not fit in with those common to ALL Earth cultures currently known, they were placed on that planet with the promise that it would be a safe haven for them. When the humans made land fall, that all changed for some reason and we don't know why.

To bring this all together, I think there is a great deal of power controlled by the Tower of Agromon and the Monastery of Infinity. Jamie understood the Monastery, so did Croal and also Jonas I would guess. Someone else is in on this secret to otherwise the Orbs would not have been created the way they were. It seems some of them were finished with great haste and the purpose of some were changed.

This story is not a real mystery, it only feels like that to us because Jamie.wri is not writing as fast as we can chew up what he writes! No writer can! Tolkien took how many years to finish the Lord of The Rings? How man years did Dune take to finally finish? What about Asimov's Foundation series? While these were books, the audience was left at the end of many of them knowing that they had to wait for another book to find out information they wanted to know. This doesn't make them mysteries, there's no detective work, just a large amount of time. Three ages of Middle earth for Tolkein, I''ve forgotten how many for Asimov's Foundation and for Dune. TSOI is at a tipping point. Jamie.wri has to bring things together for us soon. However, remember, we have another book to go after this one. We are merely cleaning up old history at this point. We are learning what Jamie and Niklas and many other Icarians forgot during the long cold sleep. what we need is patience, and the understanding that the kind of writing that Jamie.wri is doing is exceedingly difficult. He has stated that he has the ending of the book planned out that he does have the outline of the book finished. My inclination is to trust him since he has not really let us down so far.

It is difficult I know, that is why I've been doing other reading. I've found stories like Owen which has enchanted me. We've finished part one with 54 chapters I believe, and we're on to Owen II. There are characters in that story about a farm boy who longs to go to University, he makes it there, finds an unexpected friend, falls in love (again). Many crazy mad cap things happen (there's one place where a character accuses another of being "... as confused as a new born baby in a topless bar!") and some tragic things as well. I've read and re-read David McCleod's Book of Heros stories about another world where magic is a reality. "George of Sedona" is a good one to start with. Some people from this Earth have slipped through to this place just called World. Imagine a world where humans live to nearly 800 years old, and the time you spend as a youth is extended drastically. You'll have to go to Gay Authors for this one. The author is not currently adding to these stories but each one is complete in itself. Oh! and I just discovered another one on Nifty! "The Enigma of Flatness" (personally, I've never found flatness enigmatic in the slightest -- i still await what is enigmatic!Perhaps if the flatness, the plane was twisted a bit ..... and turned into a one sided plane (a mobeius strip -- no, not a stripper joint! though there is a short story in a book called Fantasia Mathematica where a stripper attempts it!) It might turn out to be somewhat enigmatic --- but then it wouldn't be flat) was a complete and delightful surprise. A "far ship", a ship that is an AI has a human avitar that is cute, good looking, funny, adventurous, and looking for a crew .... apparently cruising the Universe and hopping from galaxy to galaxy looses its novelty and the AI longs for human company finding it in two boys running from the secret police on their home planet and stumble onto "the Dream of Dawn", the AI calls himself Dreamer for short. Alll this I have discovered while waiting for jamie.wri to give us another episode. He's got competition but you will notice that I keep coming back to TSOI for more.

I have discovered more stories, but that should keep some of you reading for a while. Its kept me sane while being patient with our beloved author --- and I'm not being sarcatic, I think Jamie.wri is one brilliantly talented author who is sharing his creative process in part with us. We see how a real novel is built and how much work is involved. Now that I've given away some of my discoveries, gimme some of yours!

Chapter 43 has been an eye opener. Most of the things that happened I suspected or knew would happen, I just had no idea they'd take place the way they did. I had thought that the Emperor would be assassinated along with Savaron Loka at Castle Rood when the Ghadar were supposed to be put to death. I was right about the assassination of the Emperor but wrong about who would do the deed. I suspect that if we read back we'll find a clue that Renaud had every intention of setting things up for Jamie to take his own revenge on the Emperor. We missed that clue!

Were this a mystery, there would be clues enough to solve the mystery by now. Instead, the plot simply thickens. We hear less and less about the Commonwealth, though the gate interdiction still stands.There was also a comment about someone or something with the power to simply wipe out everything on the planet. Who or what this is we do not know and I think that the characters we are following do not know either. What we see as mysterious, they aren't even thinking about.

What is it that Jamie knows or thinks he knows about Charles that makes Charles afraid of Jamie and Jamie so angry at Charles? I've said this before, the Legion of Red and Black were an order of Icarians that were infiltrated by the Empire and used for their own means. Charles either does not know the whole story or has just not got the power to change what has gone wrong.

You think TSOI is a mystery? I've found some amazing things about music and the human brain. You realise that we understand music long before we understand language. We understand music and its grammar/syntax etc. in our mother's womb. Language waits until after birth. As a musician I guess I really got a head start on everyone else in the arts. That, btw, I found on the You Tube of all places! Life, it seems is a frustrating place to be, but what other choice to we have? I dearly wish I could meet up with a far ship like Dream of Dawn and trip off across the stars...... but then, where would my piano be?

We're just at a frustrating point in the story. I'll assure you that Jamie.wri is even more frustrated at this point, wishing that he was further ahead. But you realise that it is us that keeps him on his toes and keeps pointing out discrepancies.

I'll leave you now with this long run on post. There's lots here to occupy you and lots to comment on to.

cheers,

dioscuri

the twins are watching you!

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Sorry Dioscuri, it IS a mystery story, and sci/fi, and fantasy.

Now, if Jamie.wri had placed book 2 first then it wouldn't be a mystery story. By introducing a case of amnesia for the main characters and presenting book 1 first he has made it a mystery story, even if he did not intend to.

TSOI so far follows all the precepts for a mystery story, there is an important event the cause of which is unknown, the main characters follow clues in order to solve/understand this mystery, they encounter red herrings and contradictions and may even find the answer without realising it, eventually the mystery is resolved.

So there :P

But I can assure you I respect your entitlement to your own view, even if I don't agree :)

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No one knows who created and built the Monastery or the Tower of Agromon. Who named them that and why? The Tower of Agromon is so high that it reaches above the clouds frequently. To me it seems as if it is a broadcast centre of some sort or a control centre.

If memory serves me correctly, the Tower was already there when planetfall was made. Thru time, it's probably had several different names. The tower was later named after Escalad Agramon.

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Sorry Dioscuri, it IS a mystery story, and sci/fi, and fantasy.

Now, if Jamie.wri had placed book 2 first then it wouldn't be a mystery story. By introducing a case of amnesia for the main characters and presenting book 1 first he has made it a mystery story, even if he did not intend to.

TSOI so far follows all the precepts for a mystery story, there is an important event the cause of which is unknown, the main characters follow clues in order to solve/understand this mystery, they encounter red herrings and contradictions and may even find the answer without realising it, eventually the mystery is resolved.

So there :P

But then all stories about life are mysteries, none of the characters know what will happen to them, and neither does the reading audience. I've thought about placing the second book first, but, somehow, it just wouldn't work. The whole story became much more mundane, and the cold sleep syndrome affect would be of no importance because we'd know they'd get their memories back already, Most of what we didn't know would have been served up on a silver platter.

Life, as we live it is a mystery. We are trapped by time, trapped because we do not know the future and because we cannot move back and forth like we could on a line on a graph. We, like the characters in TSOI are stuck in that mystery called life and there are no detectives to hire and solve those mysteries, no John Steed and Emma Peel, no Sherlock Holmes to take charge of the problem. We face it without knowing what the future brings.

TSOI is closer to real life than we may think. Notice who is telling this story. Jamie is telling it. This gives you a a clue. Jamie is going to survive. We have no hint that Jamie is broken in spirit so we can be fairly sure that Niklas has survived. That is another clue.

Now if jamie.wri had chosen a third person narrative format for his story, Then we'd really have no clue as to what happens. But its that his narrator is part of the plot itself, we know at list a little bit more than we think we do. TSOI just has no Miss Marple. Mysteries all have their Miss Marple or the equivalent detective.

cheers,

dioscuri

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Good catch on the scar Dioscuri.

Perhaps T can edit the thread title, Origins of the Cow is not very flattering to Jamie.wri :lol:

On to the points you raise.

Saki's training would have been crucial. Sorry, your logic is way off there ;) Even with the Emperor dead I doubt the Empire is in disarray, current events are more of an irritation as Loka implied speaking to Jamie as he was captured. If you are in a small, bare room and I shoot at you I could easily miss, if I lob a grenade in you are dead. And the Gahdar are experts at hand to hand fighting and, I grant you, tactics, but they are not trained as soldiery and must have been severely disadvantaged in this, but they did have the assistance of a large contingent of the Kalorian League, how many that was we do not know.

Time and time again we are told that the virus attacking the humans of the Empire is advancing far faster than anyone has admitted. That's the reason I say the Empire is in disarray. Savaron Loka up to now has been a successful manipulator of the Emperor. The Emperor does what Loka wants. His absence changes nothing, the virus is the agent that introduces the disarray inside the Empire. Gold Glass is all but gone.

And the Ghdar know more than we think about ordinary soldiering. Niklas has instilled in them the Code of the Ghadar. Part of that is that they fight for their cause and they fight for each other. This is close to how the Wizard's Own Legion is constructed.

# Taldor Valoron is now cut off. Where will the living Kalorians go? The Ardentin forest is the obvious place. Very difficult to speculate at the moment, perhaps the anti-Kalorian virus never gets released, or is only partially released, perhaps the Kalorian League had some stasis units set aside for their own use, after all we now know Jamie left the saving of all loyal Icarians in Kalorian hands. As Tomasg suggested, perhaps some left Taldor Valoren after the barrier shut down. Maybe the virus wasn't 100% fatal or never even reached some outlying or remote areas.

Still a lot to learn and not much book left, so perhaps we will have to wait for book three to answer some of the questions. Of course, if one reads book 2 before book 1 then a great deal more will make sense. Maybe I'll do that. No offense to Jamie.wri, but I really do not like mystery stories.

Mystery stories I can accept, its the Vampire stories I cannot abide! Every time I turn around these days there is a story called Sci/fi with a heard of Vampires and other supernatural creatures in it. This isn't science fiction, nor is it fantasy. The correct genre for Vampire stories and the like is Horror. One of the reasons I read TSOI is that there is not hint of vampires or any other super or preternatural character.

Once you've read one vampire story, you've read them all. All they do worry about being murderers because they are now carnivores that need human blood to live. Darn it all, so do Vampire bats and mosquitoes. Someone invent a Vampire that doesn't drain its victim please? Doesn't this basically make sense? The concept of vampires is flawed, its basically the same as when Marry Shelly wrote the first Vampire story. Lets have some creativity here.

cheers,

dioscuri

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Snip...Mystery stories I can accept, its the Vampire stories I cannot abide! Every time I turn around these days there is a story called Sci/fi with a heard of Vampires and other supernatural creatures in it. This isn't science fiction, nor is it fantasy. The correct genre for Vampire stories and the like is Horror. One of the reasons I read TSOI is that there is not hint of vampires or any other super or preternatural character.Once you've read one vampire story, you've read them all. All they do worry about being murderers because they are now carnivores that need human blood to live. Darn it all, so do Vampire bats and mosquitoes. Someone invent a Vampire that doesn't drain its victim please? Doesn't this basically make sense? The concept of vampires is flawed, its basically the same as when Marry Shelly wrote the first Vampire story. Lets have some creativity here.cheers,dioscuri

Sorry, Mary Shelly did "Frankenstein" not vampires. The popularity of vampires began with John Polidori's "The Vampyre" in 1819. It is Bram Stroker's 1897 novel "Dracula" that further popularized and provided the stereotypical vampire that is the basis of the modern vampire genre of horror novels, films and TV shows.

Remember, all such stories are fiction. As is TSOI. Fiction being "the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form". Being fiction, the characters, events, plot lines and any other elements of such stories are all the products of the writers imagination and it is the province of the author of the fiction as to whether or not it has any relation to reality.

Many people like the vampire genre stories. I'm not overly fond of them, so the simple solution for me is to ignore them.

My favorite genres are Science Fiction and Fantasy or a combination of the two. I don't read Science Fiction stories with the expectation that all of the science has any relation to real science. Key word there is "fiction". The Fantasy genre kind of speaks for it self, no reality there.

I read and follow TSOI for no other reason than it is a great story. Whether or not the genetic manipulation in the story that created the Icarians or the Kalorians reflects the current genetic research in the real world is irrelevant. The same is true of the mirror gates and research into teleportation devices. It's irrelevant, it's not important. What is important is if it fits and enhances the story. What may be more important is the authors talent and skill in being able to grab and hold the attention of and provide some enjoyment for the reader. Jamie has those in spades and is, IMHO, a true Wordsmith.

Sorry didn't mean to get into a rant. :)

TomasG

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Snip...Mystery stories I can accept, its the Vampire stories I cannot abide! Every time I turn around these days there is a story called Sci/fi with a heard of Vampires and other supernatural creatures in it. This isn't science fiction, nor is it fantasy. The correct genre for Vampire stories and the like is Horror. One of the reasons I read TSOI is that there is not hint of vampires or any other super or preternatural character.Once you've read one vampire story, you've read them all. All they do worry about being murderers because they are now carnivores that need human blood to live. Darn it all, so do Vampire bats and mosquitoes. Someone invent a Vampire that doesn't drain its victim please? Doesn't this basically make sense? The concept of vampires is flawed, its basically the same as when Marry Shelly wrote the first Vampire story. Lets have some creativity here.cheers,dioscuri

Sorry, Mary Shelly did "Frankenstein" not vampires. The popularity of vampires began with John Polidori's "The Vampyre" in 1819. It is Bram Stroker's 1897 novel "Dracula" that further popularized and provided the stereotypical vampire that is the basis of the modern vampire genre of horror novels, films and TV shows.

Remember, all such stories are fiction. As is TSOI. Fiction being "the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form". Being fiction, the characters, events, plot lines and any other elements of such stories are all the products of the writers imagination and it is the province of the author of the fiction as to whether or not it has any relation to reality.

Many people like the vampire genre stories. I'm not overly fond of them, so the simple solution for me is to ignore them.

My favorite genres are Science Fiction and Fantasy or a combination of the two. I don't read Science Fiction stories with the expectation that all of the science has any relation to real science. Key word there is "fiction". The Fantasy genre kind of speaks for it self, no reality there.

I read and follow TSOI for no other reason than it is a great story. Whether or not the genetic manipulation in the story that created the Icarians or the Kalorians reflects the current genetic research in the real world is irrelevant. The same is true of the mirror gates and research into teleportation devices. It's irrelevant, it's not important. What is important is if it fits and enhances the story. What may be more important is the authors talent and skill in being able to grab and hold the attention of and provide some enjoyment for the reader. Jamie has those in spades and is, IMHO, a true Wordsmith.

Sorry didn't mean to get into a rant. :)

TomasG

Thomas; I don't see your post as a rant in any way at all. It is simply a statement of your own personal preferences in the Literature you read. You are certainly entitled to that. I, myself am horribly picky in what I like to read. I plowed my was through "Foundation" but after the first volume, I found I didn't like the direction Asimov was taking his story. Reading all of them was simply to be able to say to any critic that I had indeed read all of them and my judgement stands. It was also just plain dogged determination that the series was not going to defeat me!

I was standing by an elevator the other day and commented that we should have transporter beams to take us to our destination for they would certainly be more efficient. Look at your cell (mobile phone for anyone outside of North America) and think of the communicators used in StarTrek. Not quite the same but you can see the similarity. What is Science Fiction today may not be in the future.

As far as genetic manipulation goes, we are on the cusp of some true understanding. With things like fMIR (Functional MIR) scanning we can look deep into the brain and see in great detail its functioning and in real time. I mentioned that they had discovered that babies inthe womb had already learned a musical vocabulary while they still had no language ability. This was a stunning surprise and its affects were felt into the Anthropologist community and into the study of psychological evolution. It seems that music has played a far more important role in our development than we thought and it may have preceded language!

We are learning more about DNA and how it affects us far beyond the simple strands of genes. Genes have other meta markers which may be turned on or off or have other setting. These are changed and set after conception and not before. This means that for many complex things in humans, that the simple understanding of basic DNA is simply not enough. That we are pre-programmed for our sexuality is not a simple matter of either possessing or not possessing a certain gene, It may be a matter of something that happens to the genes inside our mother's womb before birth and after conception. Truly, what we do know is simply dwarfed by what we do not know. A certain amount of humility is required of us humans, something which seems to have been lacking in the Empire. The very idea that someone could have claimed to have reached a state of self actualization is quite simply presumptuous. Basically, they devceved themselves. Charles, I don't think has quite realised this. He is on his way to understanding this, but he is not there. Hippolito on the other hand, in quite simply incapable of understanding this concept.

I think Croal had begun to understand this, and had greatly desired to right some of the wrongs which he himself may have been responsible for. Perhaps he will by the time we finish this book. This is one of the reasons why I am being patient with our author as he struggles to put into words what I could never in a thousand years accomplish.

Developing new species like the Kalorians and the Icarians simply tests out own humanity. Obviously those in the Empire saw those two newly created species as less than human and as property and not as real people. I hope you realise that not long ago women were considered property and children as well. Children have fared far worse than women in this change in status. If children are considered real people, for all intents and purposes they are treated by their parents as property. In most cases, the child has no defense and has ho advocate for his own rights. Perhaps the treatment of the Icarians and Kalorians really points the finger at us and how we treat each other.

Gay kids frequently know for sure about their own sexuality as soon as puberty hits, and that's between 11 and 13 usually, yet the laws in most countries do not acknowledge that a child might be able to understand who he is. Of course this is utter rubbish, but the laws continue to make this distinction. Heterosexual until proven otherwise is the usual motto. Far to many of us have suffered under that deliberate misunderstanding of sexuality and many live in prisons with invisible bars which prevent them from fraternizing with those with whom they have the most in common. In many cases we are as patronizing and dismissive of our children as the Empire was of the Icarians and Kalorians. The biggest question is if anyone will learn from the eloquent writing of the likes of jamie.wri. I am pessimistic about this possibility. We surely have not learned anything from the tragedy of "Romeo and Juliet". Odd isn't it, that the love theme from Tchaikovsky's tone poem inspired by the Shakespeare play was inspired by his first gay love in what we'd consider high school! SSShhh don't tell anyone, they'll try to take the work out of music libraries in schools everywhere! No, some presumptuous self-centred, pompous music historian will come by and drop some sort of gibberish reason why this is not so and the academic peer reviewed magazines will jump on it as just giving voice to the "other side". (why I have this love/hate relationship with muisc theorticians and historians.)

Thanks for pointing out my error with Marry Shelley. While she was not responsible for the resurrection of the Vampires, she certainly was the progenitor of a whole genre of literature to do with horror. Without Mary Shelly, we certainly would not have that rich, very unique way of exploring the human psyche. Odd how it was often English writers who forged the way in literature.

Studying music, Shakespeare's influence in music from his own time through to the present day is quite phenomenal. Not only did he influence those English speakers, but his plays found their way into the literature of the stage of almost every European country. Verdi, Wagner, Berlioz, Schubert, even Beethoven was influenced by Shakespeare's work and quite frequently set it to music. No other author save perhaps E.T.A. Hoffmann has had more influence, its to bad that English is the onlly language badly servered with good translations of E.T.A. Hoffmann's literature.

His music is important almost beyond belief, His opera, "Ondine" is often counted as the first Romantic Opera. Weber's Der Freischutz takes the honour only because the sets and costumes for Ondine were destroyed in a tragic fire. The production has only recently been reconstructed by scholars. In Engllish, likely the works of Edgar Allan Poe would have been impossible without Hoffmann. Most of Wagner's Ring Cycle of operas are based in whole or in part on characters and ideas found in Hofffmann's work almost a century before.

His greatest work perhaps is the one about Tom Cat Muir. It is perhaps the strangest book ever written and published. It begins with a publishers note that the galley proofs arrived in complete disarray. Apparently someone (Tom Cat Muir) had used the blank side of the pages to write is own memoirs. The publisher thinks the book has so much merit that he publishes it as is, so the book is printed as it arrived with Tom Cat Muir's memoirs sometimes gracing the page then a a few pages later, suddenly and frequently in mid-sentence, we are in a completely different setting and in the story of the "original" author. This story is about a back water kingdom somewhere in Germany in which the people at court display the utter blandness and inane gossip, and somewhere within that story is Hoffmann's own mirror image in the personage of Kapelmeister (a conductor or music director) Johannes Kreisler.

Kreisler's music is misunderstood and he is completely unappreciated for the musical genius he is. Then suddenly we are back with the cat. The cat has somehow learned to read, write, and converse with humans and so has in theory become one of the educated elite. Unfortunately, his true nature bubbles to the surface when a rat runs through a banquet hall where Muir is attending a banquet. Muir's instincts take over and instantly he is the hunter we know cats to be. He gets a feral look in his eyes. Pounces on the rat and devours it in front of the invited guests. Hoffmann's own cat was named Muir by the way, he was a grey tabby and the two of them died within months of each other in about 1823. There is a translation which would be in the public domain but it has not been made avaailable however there is a translation published by Penguin books.

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Have you read "The Rest is Noise: Listening to the Twentieth Century" by Alex Ross?

Edited by TomasG

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It is all about perception, isn't it?

I grant you nearly all stories have an element of mystery in them, but wouldn't fit into the mystery genre. I think the way TSOI is constructed does tip the first book at least into the mystery genre.

The same with the question: is the empire in disarray? Well, not to me. It IS collapsing and for probably the majority of the population, their lives are in disarray. But the Icarians and the central government, the focus of the story, are not, or were not, in disarray. The Icarians are effectively in a protective bubble and, from their point of view, the central government is managing the collapse very well thank you.

As to Jamie and Nik surviving, well it is considered bad form to kill off your heros and there is another clue that might not be picked up. Jamie warns the forces hurrying to protect the pass to Taldor Valoren not to engage Loran directly, it would be impossible for them to kill him. That being the case, since Jamie is a far more 'complete' wizard than Loran the corollary is that not much is likely to kill Jamie, either.

As to reading preferences, who am I to criticise? But I will say that if you have not read, or aren't reading, the vampire story "Gone from Daylight" you are really missing an excellent story.

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SNIP...

As to Jamie and Nik surviving, well it is considered bad form to kill off your heros and there is another clue that might not be picked up. Jamie warns the forces hurrying to protect the pass to Taldor Valoren not to engage Loran directly, it would be impossible for them to kill him. That being the case, since Jamie is a far more 'complete' wizard than Loran the corollary is that not much is likely to kill Jamie, either.

As to reading preferences, who am I to criticise? But I will say that if you have not read, or aren't reading, the vampire story "Gone from Daylight" you are really missing an excellent story.

I've always thought that Jamie would defeat Loran at Ondra, but then step down as Wizard in favor of Charlie. Jamie has said on several occasions that he doesn't want to be the Wizard and Nic has said that he doesn't want to be a King. Jamie is all about keeping his promises. When he accomplishes that, his tast will be completed.

I'm probably wrong, but I have believed that Charlie would somehow end up being the Wizard. When he mated with Giovanni it furthered that belief, and that they would be the ones to restore Altinestra to it's former glory. We have in them another paring of the de Valén and Agramos bloodlines.

To each his own when it comes to reading preferences.

Even though there are genres of stories that I have very little interest in reading, such as vampire stories, I try to maintain an open mind about them because occasionally one shows up that is reasonably well written and has a decent plotline (and is not all about blood, guts and gore even though some of that is there) that makes them a nice temporary escape from reality. Of course any genre of fiction, especially the Fantasy or Science Fiction genres requires at a minimum, a partial "Suspension of Disbelief" which some people are incapable of.

You're right about Comicality's "Gone From Daylight". I almost didn't bother with it since vampire stories are not normally on my reading list, but it is different than your run of the mill vampire story. Another vampire story that I stumbled across is Arthur's "Prince of the House of Vlad" on nifty/gay/sf-fantasy. It too is different and not your typical bloodsucking vampire story. If you like GFD, you might enjoy it. There are 18 chapters on nifty, but it is starting to be posted on Wolfsnest. The first two chapters have been posted there. I usually can't be bothered with vampire stories, books and movies, but these are two vampire stories that don't suck. Well... :)

I'm not sure that the origins of the Vosh is as important as their obvious loyalty to the Protector because of their prophecy.

Take care

TomasG

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I've always thought that Jamie would defeat Loran at Ondra, but then step down as Wizard in favor of Charlie.

I'm probably wrong, but I have believed that Charlie would somehow end up being the Wizard. When he mated with Giovanni it furthered that belief, and that they would be the ones to restore Altinestra to it's former glory. We have in them another paring of the de Valén and Agramos bloodlines.

Ever since the discovery of Charlie, I've thought the same thing. Jamie is the shield that protects the weapon Charlie.

I've been suspicious of Giovanni since his introduction at the Ecole Danse. I don 't think Giovanni has been told his bloodline yet, but then again, neither has the reader.

I don't expect to see Charlie at the Circle of Ondra until after the battle is over between Jamie and Loran. Given Lorans current mentality, he'd go after him too. I can almost hear the gasp's of surprise when Charlie does make his first official appearance before the Prince's and Scribes.

Too bad Charlie hasn't completed the Icarian puberty cycle. Hippolito wouldn't stand a chance against 2 Wizards, the Gahdar, and the Wizard's Own.

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I've always thought that Jamie would defeat Loran at Ondra, but then step down as Wizard in favor of Charlie.

I'm probably wrong, but I have believed that Charlie would somehow end up being the Wizard. When he mated with Giovanni it furthered that belief, and that they would be the ones to restore Altinestra to it's former glory. We have in them another paring of the de Valén and Agramos bloodlines.

Ever since the discovery of Charlie, I've thought the same thing. Jamie is the shield that protects the weapon Charlie.

I've been suspicious of Giovanni since his introduction at the Ecole Danse. I don 't think Giovanni has been told his bloodline yet, but then again, neither has the reader.

I don't expect to see Charlie at the Circle of Ondra until after the battle is over between Jamie and Loran. Given Lorans current mentality, he'd go after him too. I can almost hear the gasp's of surprise when Charlie does make his first official appearance before the Prince's and Scribes.

Too bad Charlie hasn't completed the Icarian puberty cycle. Hippolito wouldn't stand a chance against 2 Wizards, the Gahdar, and the Wizard's Own.

Hhhmmm, I don't know. I think Charlie and Giovanni may well have a different role to play.

I don't think Charlie's or Giovanni's talents or characters would lend themselves to be King and Wizard. Don't forget King and Wizard were constructs of the empire, Croal and Jonas obviously had very different intentions but were more or less forced to go with the status quo. Also when Croal created Jamie and Charlie he knew that Loran would be a failure as a Wizard, but he did not know that Hippolito (so we assume) was going to kill Alexander. I think Jamie and Niklas were designed to protect Charlie, they were both the 'shield', and Charlie's role may be more to do with the terrifying secret and danger revealed in the Monastery of Infinity than ruling Altinestra.

Mush is still to be revealed. (and much as well) :D

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A government formed by Jamie and/or Charlie will be different from what they currently know, a more democratic one. As where a government formed by Loran and/or Hippolito will be a dictatorship plain and simple.

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A government formed by Jamie and/or Charlie will be different from what they currently know, a more democratic one. As where a government formed by Loran and/or Hippolito will be a dictatorship plain and simple.

I doubt that very much, I don't see much room for democracy in either Niklas' nor Jamie's nor even Charlie's outlook. Don't forget there is no history of democracy in either the old or the new timelines.

Even in the real world we are moving toward a post democratic system. Europe is trying to produce a Federated States of Europe run by an unelected and, for the most part, unappointed commission. The voices of the 'democratic' states will be heard, but their views only taken under consideration. The USA has been establishing ever greater numbers of commissions and agencies and similar, both at a federal and a state level to bring in regulation where passing law is too difficult, just look at the far reaching tentacles the EPA has grown. The UK prides itself on being the Mother of Parliaments but in actuality it is now an elective oligarchy.

Democracy is a nineteenth century phenomenon (yes I know Athens was a democracy 2,000 years ago. Just look at where it got them) and dying as we watch. Dictatorship, whether in the form of monarchy, warlord, council or whatever, is the human standard, one could even say, natural form.

If I've sprinkled salt on anyone's tail just remember that I am entitled to my opinion as others are theirs. And to keep the peace on the forum I will not respond to any responses. :)

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Along with pietro and not to stir up any debate on the subject and only meant as friendly totally off-topic comment*. :) Contrary to popular belief, the US is not and has never been a Democracy. It is a Republic... a Representative Republic.

Also, as with pietro I'll not respond to or make any further post on this subject.

NOW... back to the topic of The Origins of the Vosh.

It is obvious that the Vosh have some connection with the prisoners from Stone Gate, I can't think of any other reason for the coats of the four Vosh Doshen to be the same as the standard prison garb of the prisoners. A light grey coat with three red strips on the sleeves.

We don't know for sure that any but the tortured and maimed prisoners volunteered to act as shields for the Gahdar at angels falls. I just assumed that all of the Kalorian prisoners had been tortured and maimed, but Castor wasn't and although many were, we don't have any evidence that all of them were. I don't recall that there was any reference as to number of Kalorian prisoners rescued. Perhaps, some of the prisoners survived, made it through the gate at Angels Falls, and they were the ones that ventured into the Ardentin and are the ancestors of the Vosh. It is entirely possible that they were, but assumptions based on flimsy or non-existent evidence can lead to very wrong conclusions. We may never learn the origin. Only if it is important to the continuance of the story.

Jamie did estimate that 95% of the 7081 that passed through the gate were the Kalorian children. That would mean that of the 7081 only about 6725 were children and the rest were adults.

Take Care

TomasG

*Not that we don't freguently stray off topic on occasion with ill effect. LOL

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Castor really wasn't a prisoner, though he was kept at the prison. He was being used by Hippolito to make Jamie do what he wanted.

As to the exact number of prisoners, we don't know for sure how many there were. It wasn't mentioned but there is always the possibility that there were humans amongst the prison guards that were sympathetic to the cause who helped out where they could.

While watching Blue Planet on Animal Planet, they had a segment on Angels Falls. The description of the falls reminded me of the falls in the story. Here's so pictures of Angels Falls.

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It is obvious that the Vosh have some connection with the prisoners from Stone Gate, I can't think of any other reason for the coats of the four Vosh Doshen to be the same as the standard prison garb of the prisoners. A light grey coat with three red strips on the sleeves.

I agree that there is a Prison of Pain/Vosh connection, most likely the original Vosh adopted the dress in honour of the sacrifice made by the rescued prisoners. In truth I doubt we will ever hear the story of what actually happens as it is probably of no importance to the story, not to mention that as far as we know the Vosh had lost most of their early history.

On the other hand, perhaps Jamie.wri will be moved to writing a Silmarillion-like addition after TSOI completes. I am sure there would be great interest, here and publicly if Jamie.wri does ever publish the story.

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It is obvious that the Vosh have some connection with the prisoners from Stone Gate, I can't think of any other reason for the coats of the four Vosh Doshen to be the same as the standard prison garb of the prisoners. A light grey coat with three red strips on the sleeves.

I agree that there is a Prison of Pain/Vosh connection, most likely the original Vosh adopted the dress in honour of the sacrifice made by the rescued prisoners. In truth I doubt we will ever hear the story of what actually happens as it is probably of no importance to the story, not to mention that as far as we know the Vosh had lost most of their early history.

On the other hand, perhaps Jamie.wri will be moved to writing a Silmarillion-like addition after TSOI completes. I am sure there would be great interest, here and publicly if Jamie.wri does ever publish the story.

We learned early on that the virus that caused humans to have reduced memories, or even death, did affect the Kalorians but not to the same extent. It could be possible that the mutated virus had some affect on the Kalorians that survived outside Taldor Valoran. We do know that humans survived it.

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We learned early on that the virus that caused humans to have reduced memories, or even death, did affect the Kalorians but not to the same extent. It could be possible that the mutated virus had some affect on the Kalorians that survived outside Taldor Valoran. We do know that humans survived it.

I was thinking more on the lines that they lost their history during the turmoil of the post fall centuries and their nomadic life which included a great deal of persecution, at least that is what I have gleaned from the story so far.

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We learned early on that the virus that caused humans to have reduced memories, or even death, did affect the Kalorians but not to the same extent. It could be possible that the mutated virus had some affect on the Kalorians that survived outside Taldor Valoran. We do know that humans survived it.

I was thinking more on the lines that they lost their history during the turmoil of the post fall centuries and their nomadic life which included a great deal of persecution, at least that is what I have gleaned from the story so far.

These could be two of the most prominent factors. We do know they were treated poorly. Promises made and promises broken.

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