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pietro

ICARIAN
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Posts posted by pietro

  1. We learned early on that the virus that caused humans to have reduced memories, or even death, did affect the Kalorians but not to the same extent. It could be possible that the mutated virus had some affect on the Kalorians that survived outside Taldor Valoran. We do know that humans survived it.

    I was thinking more on the lines that they lost their history during the turmoil of the post fall centuries and their nomadic life which included a great deal of persecution, at least that is what I have gleaned from the story so far.

  2. It is obvious that the Vosh have some connection with the prisoners from Stone Gate, I can't think of any other reason for the coats of the four Vosh Doshen to be the same as the standard prison garb of the prisoners. A light grey coat with three red strips on the sleeves.

    I agree that there is a Prison of Pain/Vosh connection, most likely the original Vosh adopted the dress in honour of the sacrifice made by the rescued prisoners. In truth I doubt we will ever hear the story of what actually happens as it is probably of no importance to the story, not to mention that as far as we know the Vosh had lost most of their early history.

    On the other hand, perhaps Jamie.wri will be moved to writing a Silmarillion-like addition after TSOI completes. I am sure there would be great interest, here and publicly if Jamie.wri does ever publish the story.

  3. A government formed by Jamie and/or Charlie will be different from what they currently know, a more democratic one. As where a government formed by Loran and/or Hippolito will be a dictatorship plain and simple.

    I doubt that very much, I don't see much room for democracy in either Niklas' nor Jamie's nor even Charlie's outlook. Don't forget there is no history of democracy in either the old or the new timelines.

    Even in the real world we are moving toward a post democratic system. Europe is trying to produce a Federated States of Europe run by an unelected and, for the most part, unappointed commission. The voices of the 'democratic' states will be heard, but their views only taken under consideration. The USA has been establishing ever greater numbers of commissions and agencies and similar, both at a federal and a state level to bring in regulation where passing law is too difficult, just look at the far reaching tentacles the EPA has grown. The UK prides itself on being the Mother of Parliaments but in actuality it is now an elective oligarchy.

    Democracy is a nineteenth century phenomenon (yes I know Athens was a democracy 2,000 years ago. Just look at where it got them) and dying as we watch. Dictatorship, whether in the form of monarchy, warlord, council or whatever, is the human standard, one could even say, natural form.

    If I've sprinkled salt on anyone's tail just remember that I am entitled to my opinion as others are theirs. And to keep the peace on the forum I will not respond to any responses. :)

  4. I've always thought that Jamie would defeat Loran at Ondra, but then step down as Wizard in favor of Charlie.

    I'm probably wrong, but I have believed that Charlie would somehow end up being the Wizard. When he mated with Giovanni it furthered that belief, and that they would be the ones to restore Altinestra to it's former glory. We have in them another paring of the de Valén and Agramos bloodlines.

    Ever since the discovery of Charlie, I've thought the same thing. Jamie is the shield that protects the weapon Charlie.

    I've been suspicious of Giovanni since his introduction at the Ecole Danse. I don 't think Giovanni has been told his bloodline yet, but then again, neither has the reader.

    I don't expect to see Charlie at the Circle of Ondra until after the battle is over between Jamie and Loran. Given Lorans current mentality, he'd go after him too. I can almost hear the gasp's of surprise when Charlie does make his first official appearance before the Prince's and Scribes.

    Too bad Charlie hasn't completed the Icarian puberty cycle. Hippolito wouldn't stand a chance against 2 Wizards, the Gahdar, and the Wizard's Own.

    Hhhmmm, I don't know. I think Charlie and Giovanni may well have a different role to play.

    I don't think Charlie's or Giovanni's talents or characters would lend themselves to be King and Wizard. Don't forget King and Wizard were constructs of the empire, Croal and Jonas obviously had very different intentions but were more or less forced to go with the status quo. Also when Croal created Jamie and Charlie he knew that Loran would be a failure as a Wizard, but he did not know that Hippolito (so we assume) was going to kill Alexander. I think Jamie and Niklas were designed to protect Charlie, they were both the 'shield', and Charlie's role may be more to do with the terrifying secret and danger revealed in the Monastery of Infinity than ruling Altinestra.

    Mush is still to be revealed. (and much as well) :D

  5. It is all about perception, isn't it?

    I grant you nearly all stories have an element of mystery in them, but wouldn't fit into the mystery genre. I think the way TSOI is constructed does tip the first book at least into the mystery genre.

    The same with the question: is the empire in disarray? Well, not to me. It IS collapsing and for probably the majority of the population, their lives are in disarray. But the Icarians and the central government, the focus of the story, are not, or were not, in disarray. The Icarians are effectively in a protective bubble and, from their point of view, the central government is managing the collapse very well thank you.

    As to Jamie and Nik surviving, well it is considered bad form to kill off your heros and there is another clue that might not be picked up. Jamie warns the forces hurrying to protect the pass to Taldor Valoren not to engage Loran directly, it would be impossible for them to kill him. That being the case, since Jamie is a far more 'complete' wizard than Loran the corollary is that not much is likely to kill Jamie, either.

    As to reading preferences, who am I to criticise? But I will say that if you have not read, or aren't reading, the vampire story "Gone from Daylight" you are really missing an excellent story.

  6. Sorry Dioscuri, it IS a mystery story, and sci/fi, and fantasy.

    Now, if Jamie.wri had placed book 2 first then it wouldn't be a mystery story. By introducing a case of amnesia for the main characters and presenting book 1 first he has made it a mystery story, even if he did not intend to.

    TSOI so far follows all the precepts for a mystery story, there is an important event the cause of which is unknown, the main characters follow clues in order to solve/understand this mystery, they encounter red herrings and contradictions and may even find the answer without realising it, eventually the mystery is resolved.

    So there :P

    But I can assure you I respect your entitlement to your own view, even if I don't agree :)

  7. I don't think the barrier has been activated yet. Jamie did instruct someone on how to do it. I don't think the Empire would be in too big of a hurry to go after the Kalorians in Taldor Valoren. Why waste the time, there are plan's to eliminate the race anyway

    ...................

    This now also brings up another question, if the barrier was only to last for 100 years, why is there still a barrier in place? Is it the same one, or a different one. I have to wonder of Jamie set up a second one to protect the area around the Tower of Agramon knowing what he knows about it, it's possible.

    True we don't know if those in Taldor Valoren activated the barrier or not, I rather think they would have as it was part of the measures to protect their children.

    We know it isn't the same one protecting Altinestra, I suspect Jamie sets that one up at another time before they enter stasis, no doubt there will be an answer in the next instalment as that is rather a crucial feature in the story. Although I suppose it is possible, not likely, but possible, Jamie and the others were in stasis for 100 years, woke up, found everything still in turmoil, blocked off Altinestra and went back for another couple of thousand years :lol:

  8. Good catch on the scar Dioscuri.

    Perhaps T can edit the thread title, Origins of the Cow is not very flattering to Jamie.wri :lol:

    On to the points you raise.

    # We've seen older Kalorians dressed in grey coats running the Kalorian part of the operation. Maybe grey coats are the 'uniform' of the Kalorian League. Interesting that grey is nondescript and easily overlooked, especially when the Kalorians favoured bright colours. However, for an escape grey would be a good choice for everyone.

    # We know the Emperor is dead and so is a good part of his idea to move to Argon. Ah no, Savaron Loka is the man in charge, both of the project and, we can reasonably assume, now the government, so at this point the evacuation to Argon is unaffected. Obviously subsequent actions may change this, obviously something did change as even the collaborators among the Icarian 'royals' did not go. And in Jamie's own words earlier, more or less, 'things got a bit hectic at the end'.

    # We know the empire is in a sort of disarray, obviously not expecting the kind of battle they had to fight. Imagine being a battle hov pilot and having to fight or shoot at one of those small tiny moving targets (the Ghadar) when you're used to shooting at larger objects and your weapons are made for destroying larger objects. I wonder how many battle hovs were destroyed when a Ghadar duet duped two hovs into shooting each other down. Remember, this is part of the battle which Niklas *knew* in advance they'd be fighting and where Master Saki's training would have been crucial. Sorry, your logic is way off there ;) Even with the Emperor dead I doubt the Empire is in disarray, current events are more of an irritation as Loka implied speaking to Jamie as he was captured. If you are in a small, bare room and I shoot at you I could easily miss, if I lob a grenade in you are dead. And the Gahdar are experts at hand to hand fighting and, I grant you, tactics, but they are not trained as soldiery and must have been severely disadvantaged in this, but they did have the assistance of a large contingent of the Kalorian League, how many that was we do not know.

    # Taldor Valoron is now cut off. Where will the living Kalorians go? The Ardentin forest is the obvious place. Very difficult to speculate at the moment, perhaps the anti-Kalorian virus never gets released, or is only partially released, perhaps the Kalorian League had some stasis units set aside for their own use, after all we now know Jamie left the saving of all loyal Icarians in Kalorian hands. As Tomasg suggested, perhaps some left Taldor Valoren after the barrier shut down. Maybe the virus wasn't 100% fatal or never even reached some outlying or remote areas.

    Still a lot to learn and not much book left, so perhaps we will have to wait for book three to answer some of the questions. Of course, if one reads book 2 before book 1 then a great deal more will make sense. Maybe I'll do that. No offence to Jamie.wri, but I really do not like mystery stories.

  9. Well, I did say something obviously went wrong. Which was not quite correct. In retrospect of course, Jamie's plan to 'save' the Kalorians was unworkable, he hadn't thought it through at all, not that he had much time to in fairness, however, through the courage and intelligence of the Kalorians it worked flawlessly from their point of view.

    Some are concerned that if the barrier made Taldor Valoren impregnable in either direction how did the modern day people move in and out. Well, it was set for 100 years after which it cancelled automatically. Modern times is 2,300 years later and far more than a hundred years had passed before the valley was used as a repository for plague victims and resealed, this time physically.

    Again we don't know the fate of Trio Chrysalis, one ballet shoe proves nothing.

    I also thought Renaud would have personally killed the Emperor, especially as Jamie was barely functioning at that time, but there we are, a perfectly acceptable outcome.

    Also it is a little strange Loka and his henchmen were basically waiting for Jamie, yet did not appear to know the Emperor was dead, or at least dying. Maybe we will find more about that later.

    All in all, we had a lot confirmed, the rod, the Aldorian clan, the 7 and 81, etc. And we can now assume the source of the Altinestran barrier.

    The only criticisms I have is that all the Gahdar apparently survived unharmed, but perhaps it is only an assumption there were only one hundred pairs, I would have to re-read the entire second part to be sure. If the battle had been fought hand to hand then I could accept that they all survived, given their phenomenal abilities, but, since it was fought with energy weapons, guns, grenades and God knows what else plus the enemy having control of the skies it is quite honestly ridiculous that they should all have made it through unscathed.

    There are a few bits in this chapter that feel a little contrived to me, but perhaps future events will cast more light on events.

    Let's hope the next instalment is not too far away.

  10. Chapter 26 is up at GA.

    It is certainly a cracker with a lot of the disparate threads being pulled together.

    I've given it a quick read and will give it a more thorough examination tomorrow. There is an awful lot of content there.

    The worrying thing is it could all be sewn up in 2 or 3 more chapters the speed it is going, lets hope I'm wrong, or if I'm right, there's another book to come!

    Well, I've read it three times now, very wide ranging and complex and leaves a handful of cliffhangers AAAAHHHHHH!

    I have a few quibbles, some dragon deaths don't seem (note the word 'seem') to have the correct effects, the one killed by Falk and Lannet in Everone and the one killed by the pantherling forces guarding the Slome swamps apparently had no discernable effects.

    If the mysterious elf taken in hand by the King is a Kandric sibling he must have been Kaylaria's first son, not Aster. Aster is 45 years old but the mystery elf is 51. I suppose it could be explained but there are no hints in the story to suggest anything. I suppose the age could be wrong and he was Aster's twin.

    I am still not happy with the Gambra situation, in Junsac she was apparently a respected mage but is everywhere else known as an evil Dark Mage. OK, she could have used another name in Junsac, but how many halfling legendary or master female mages are there likely to be in the area? OK it could be she wasn't local and therefore wasn't known in Junsac, not having done anything obviously evil there, but it doesn't seem quite right.

    Still, those niggles aside, it continues to be a compelling story. Hopefully there will be some more before too long.

  11. Chapter 26 is up at GA.

    It is certainly a cracker with a lot of the disparate threads being pulled together.

    I've given it a quick read and will give it a more thorough examination tomorrow. There is an awful lot of content there.

    The worrying thing is it could all be sewn up in 2 or 3 more chapters the speed it is going, lets hope I'm wrong, or if I'm right, there's another book to come!

  12. There are some notable, and improving, updates from chapter 18 on, so far. I wonder if there were updates in earlier chapters but those chapters were not actually re-uploaded, or the unedited chapters were uploaded again by mistake?

    Maybe we'll see something in the future or someone at Wolfsnest will say something.

    I may have found out the problem, there are TWO sets of files in the Kandric section at Wolfsnest. For example:

    http://www.wolfsnest.n40c.net/kyle arrons/Kandric saga/14.htm

    and,

    http://www.wolfsnest.n40c.net/kyle arrons/Kandric_saga/14.htm

    It is the last form, with the underscore between kandric and saga (Kandric_saga) that is the new version.

    Some of the links in the index page link to the new edit, some to the original page and some nowhere.

    Perhaps if someone here can contact whoever at Wolfsnest they can point this out, as far as I can see there is no contact link on the site.

  13. I know we're getting a little off topic here, but speaking of religion. In the past time line, there has been no mention of a dominate religion. The only religion mentioned is in the current timeline.

    Well, Altinestra, if I recall correctly, was settled by scientists who were most likely non-religious as a group. Even if there were some with a powerful belief I doubt the majority would have accepted any organised observance or shown any interest. Also one can assume there was little 'unknown' among the original settlers, not understood, perhaps, but not unknown. Religion depends on ignorance and the fear of the unknown to take hold, in my opinion, of course and I have no problem with other people having a belief, provided they don't use it as an excuse to interfere with me.

    It is interesting that religion wasn't present post the fall in the current time line either, not until Sarjanus got the wrong end of the stick, as it were, when the world had been reduced to an iron age state. And his religion did initially have good effects, introducing a measure of morality and safety into everyday life, reducing war and oppression. As would be expected it became perverted after, but initially it was a force for good and thus attractive to those on the lowest tiers of society.

    The analogues with real world religion are obvious, so I won't say more. Nor would I wish my atheist views to offend, I very much believe in each to their own.

  14. Some authors do their own editing and do okay with it. Then there's others who are so bad, I've quit reading the story.

    I don't know if Kyle uses an editor for Kandric, I suspect he does from dimly remembered comments here and there, but not all editors are necessarily competent :P

    Certainly if you get into reading a story it is difficult to edit it, almost as difficult as editing your own work.

    I must confess that I have kept a copy of this, and other works, stuff on the internet can disappear without trace and without warning, after all. With a quality work like Kandric I do in fact edit what I have retained, mainly for grammatical, spelling and typographic errors but also correcting obvious errors and some of the more tortuous paragraphs that leave me with a 'what!!!!' and require re-reading to make sense of on occasion. I also hate the red on black colour scheme as I did the white on brown it had at one time, although maybe that was something else. Black on white is my preference.

    I hasten to add that I am not criticising Kyle or his assumed editor in any way, should he read this, errors of a similar nature are not unknown even in published books.

    Like the others here, I will follow this story to the end, whatever the quality of the edit and however long it takes.

  15. No! No! NOT! Complexity and chaos theory were principals that Croal and Jonas of Amodon built into all their work, not just two or three Icarians. The principals of complexity go down to the very nature of the evolutionary process. Evolution itself is complex and chaotic. That is why it had the success it had. The whole Icarian race was conceived using those principals. What Croal realised after creating Loran was that one of the essential chaotic and complex things in the creation of a living being is the environment in which he/she/it is raised. That is why he chose to create Jamie and Charlie in his own secret lab away from Gold Glass and raise them at home. To the scientists at Gold Glass this was interfering in the controlled situation they had in the lab and outside of the lab no results could be trusted.

    Croal understood that he was dealing with living sentient beings. To Croal, none of the Kalorians or the Icarians were experiments. They were not lab animals, and needed to be treated with the same respect the children of their own species were treated.

    As I mentioned above, the whole Icarian race was created bearing in mind the theories of complexitiy. As for the seven sided dice, yes, Croal did some things genetically with Jamie and Charlie partially because of advances he had made himself since creating Loran and partially be cause he did add some new genetic material (from the Ghroum). Croal careful chose a VERY FEW traits to control, leaving 90% of the rest up to chance, up to the complexity of evolution.

    Remember that the only parts of avian genetics Croal purposefully built into the Icarians was their immune system. Nothing else. The fact that they had wings that worked was the result of chance. Their extended life span also was an unintended consequence, the result of complex systems interacting.

    What is a soul? What is soul sharing? Who has a soul? How do you know Parrots or Dolphins do not have a soul? You are treading on thin ice here, you blur the lines that distinguish religion from science. Science and religion do not mix at all. Mostly the mixture is explosive. To put a point on it, Focus on the Family now has a position on animal homosexuality. Of course they'll relate it to bestiality and a whole host of other half truths they've tried to paint the gay community with.

    That group of people under the banner of Exodus is trying to cure gay people of being gay using all sorts of unauthorized methods administered by unqualified people. Canada just booted someone from South Africa out of the country for his use of eletro-shock therapy in treating gay men for their homosexuality. That's what happens when you attempt to use a religious tomb of dubious origins as a book of science!

    Perhaps I've now just kicked the wasp's nest as General Zakaria might say!

    cheers,

    dioscuri

    Your arguments don't convince me. Jamie and particularly Niklas are virtually clones of De Valan and Agramos, not much left to chance there.

    Nor do I dispute that the underlying theories of Jonas and Croal's plans are based on chaos theory. As I see it the chaotic element was in creating a species with sufficient potential to break the empire and then standing back. After all, if the majority of Icarians turned out like Hippolito, entirely possible with chaos theory, well things might not have been so rosy.

    I certainly agree that Croal saw Kalorians and Icarians as people rather than things and that normal socialisation was an important element. But don't forget, the majority of Icarians exhibit the best traits of humanity despite their upbringing and training, so nobility must be part of the innate Icarian character, although Hippolito and no doubt others were certainly lacking. And don't forget Croal was a terrible 'father', manipulating, continually spying on and controlling his 'sons'. I wouldn't look at him through Jamie's eyes, reality says he was 90% scientist and 9% revolutionary. Not a lot of loving left there. He may have been on the side of right as we see it, but he was just as ruthless as anyone else in the empire.

    I can assure you I certainly do not confuse religion and science, nor blur any lines, intentionally at least. I am 99% atheist with 1% agnostic as nothing is completely impossible. I see no validity in any religion, to my mind they are all obviously human constructs without spiritual foundation. I use 'soul' because as a word it is understandable as being the fundamental, essential, innate essence of a person's sentience, everything that makes them what they are. I also think it has more to do with chemistry than anything spiritual. I consider humanity to be no more than the top tier of higher animals, so on that basis, yes, many animals do have a 'soul'. Anyone with a cat or dog will recognise curiosity, playfulness, pain, irritation, anger etcetera, even perhaps nobility and self-sacrifice on occasion, all of which fits my interpretation of 'soul'. I will be pleased and amazed if there turns out to be an afterlife, but I doubt very much there is.

  16. Hhhmmm, I can't say I agree with your position.

    As I read it, Croal knew exactly what he was creating with Jamie, Niklas and Charlie and probably Giovanni and Jonathan as well. The chaos element was in their having powers and attributes far beyond the empire's understanding and thus beyond the empire's ability to control them. This is particularly so with Jamie and Charlie, thus introducing the seven-sided dice, roll them expecting them to have six sides and the result is completely unpredictable.

    I do not think birds of any species represents a model, genetic or otherwise, for Icarian bonding, to me it is clearly a 'soul sharing', or whatever you want to call it, type thing.

  17. Kyle is one of those authors that I rank up there with Jamie, Sequoyah Pendor, and Comicality as favorite online authors, but Kandric is the only story that I have stayed with even with only one chapter a year. Perhaps it should be that Seqouyah and Comicality rank up there with Kyle and Jamie.

    I second that :)

    I have begun re-reading and I am sorry to report that there seems to be very little 'updating' as far as the story goes. As far as I can see the only update in the first few chapters is the first line of the first chapter. There may be some editing but as to additional content or corrections to suspected errors, nothing I can see. :(

  18. Kyle has been a long time Hosted Author at Gay Authors and is one of the reasons Myr got interested in hosting stories. It is mainly because of the adult/youth scenes that the story doesn't appear publicly. Now with GA Stories, that may be changing. It will be posted with a strong warning.

    I've told people that if they can get past the adult/youth sections, they are in for a good story.

    When I know it's posted, I certainly post a link to it.

    In fairness the adult/youth aspects are, for the most part, allusion or implicit rather than explicit, and where such things are explicit it is usually, if not exclusively, necessary to the narrative, in other words, it is not gratuitous.

    That said, this is a very dark, ruthless and violent world with little regard for modern sensibilities, no punches pulled and very much in the cast of the common conception of the dark ages. Kyle's characters, as with all excellent writers, are very 'real', some are both truly heroic and consummately evil at the same time, as well as some truly noble and others purely evil, there are no cardboard cut-out characters or clichés, not even among the peripheral people.

  19. UPDATE:

    Kyle has updated the first 25 chapters and will be sending chapter 26 to Myr some time next week for posting at Gay Authors.

    Oh excellent news :D I had been keeping my fingers crossed for a New Year present as that seems to be Kyle's style with this story, checking every day since Christmas, and was just about to pass my hopes on to Summer.

    Updates for the other chapters is also excellent. This story has been in the writing for over ten years, after all, I am sure a lot of additional ideas have come to Kyle in that time. I am even more pleased that he has gone for updating rather than abandoning the story as so many other writers do when a story evolves beyond what they have already written, and not just internet writers either!

    Perhaps you will be kind enough, T, to let us know when the chapters are up as the GA update pages are currently useless.

    I have said it before, but I think both Jamie.wri and Kyle's stories are truly excellent, both eminently publishable (although Kyle's work probably wouldn't pass today's moral censorship as it stands, as he notes himself)

  20. It is one of the Black brothers that delivers the tooth from the Agramos tomb directly to Croal. I doubt that he would have allowed anyone but himself to create the Icarian embryo that became Nicklas. We know that Giovanni is a Royal Throne. We also know that Jamie as you have said, would be the only one to know who Giovanni is.

    The only clue we have is that when Jamie saw the results of the DNA scan of Giovanni confirming he was a Royal Throne he gasped in surprise at something he saw. We also know that Jamie had seen and kept a copy of the DNA map of Nicklas (or perhaps it was of Agromos), but I am guessing that Jamie's reaction is because the DNA from Giovanni matches that of Agromos enough that he would be directly and closely related to Nicklas even though they are completely different personalities.

    We know no one else could create an Icarian from scratch. We have been told categorically that Croal kept the secret of their creation to himself, others working on the Avionne project could only tinker with the genetics of Croal created embryos or maybe pre-embryos. Thus the likes of Jamie and Niklas must have been engineered by Croal.

    I think from what we have seen so far Icarians are generally randy and promiscuous as well as generally friendly so all kinds of partnership up to a full bond is possible.

    We do? I think all we have is rumor and innuendo. We know that all the rumours about Jamie and his affairs are false, we also know that all the rumours about Nicklas are also false. That proves that there are some good gossip mongers in Kuronos. In Jamie's case it is the Impressario's office that encourages those rumours. In fact, aside from the comments made in the Bronze Interlude where the Ghadar are camped outside of the city in which Loran's army is ensconced, we have nothing. There, all we have is wolf whistles and comments on what might be fun. Assuming what you propose is like saying that the Americanized version of "Queer as Folk" is an accurate representation of how gay men acted in the 1980's, when I know that it isn't. Most of that series is about the myth of what gay society is like. Its to bad people actually believe it.

    We know something about relationships that were made then torn apart because the pair were separated when they were sent or bought by different Dukes or Barrons. That is part of the discussion with Trio Chrysialis about Christophe. All that talk is about trying to avoid disunion when a mated pair were forceably separated.

    The bond I think is something different, more on the level of a Vulcan (a la star trek) bond, a permanent mental joining where the participants can almost share one consciousness, sharing a soul or however you want to put it. It is the tearing of this bond that causes disunion and potential suicide. But as I said before, sufficient need or responsibility could overcome it to some extent.

    I think it ii is a better idea to look closer to home and closer to biology her on earth. Macaw s. for instance, mate for life. Some species of Geese also mate for life.

    Don't agree. Several species mate for life and some will even pine to death after but they don't share a soul as 'mated' Icarians do. I think there is a bit of semantics involved here, a confusion with simple sexual mating and a much more intense bonding both using the term 'mate'.

    As to origins, from all we have read so far we can fairly assume Croal created Niklas, Giovanni and probably Jonathan. Why? Because all of these have non-standard, or maybe special would be a better word, DNA. We also know that he created Charles because Charles was the first icarian.

    I think the Icarian project as conceived by Croal and Jonas of Amodon was a subversive project from the beginning. From Croal's point of view it was a way of making up for the creation of the Kalorians which ultimately became a slave race. The Empire is attempting to do the same with the Icarirans, However, because of Croal and Jonas belief in the concept of complexity, the Icarian race is quite unpredictable. Some things are sort of hard wired, not much though. Everything except resistance to disease and inteligence is left up to the roll of the dice. Even the creation of Charlie and Jamie from the same DNA, didn't make two of the same Icarians.

    Again I don't see it that way, for normal Icarians, yes, but Jamie and Niklas and Charlie, and probably Jonathan and Giovanni, all the evidence is for very careful and precise engineering of specific traits and abilities.

    Who smuggled these boys into their respective niches, Niklas the Gahdar, Giovanni service and expedition at the Mondele and Jonathan who knows where? My betting is on the Farzetti. Although they have little mention in Jamie.wri's work so far, it is obvious they played a very important role behind the scenes. In fact I would guess that they were Croal's principal conspirators, giving him tentacles into every level of the empire.

    Croal knew about other conspiritors, but only enough to get what he wanted done. The reason that any revolution in that Empire worked was because they didn't know about each other. If one failed, another one was there to fill in the gap somehow.Also, remember that the Kalorians are the slaves and the servants of the Empire, they are always there in the background and assumed to be invisible, which enables them to do things like move Castor around the Empire until he's working at the Mondale. So moving Gioivani in place in Expedition and Service would not be beyond the capability of the Kalorian conspiricy.

    Who ever from the Empire (like Savaron Loka), or even Hippolito, who attempted to interfere and control the Icarians was in for a big surprise. Genetically they are as surprising as any new species we might find here on earth.

    My money is still on the Farzetti as the central conspirators.

    Well, we can't be expected to all agree. The greatest advantage the written word has over film is that we all interpret what we read differently. One person will see something fundamentally significant where another will see nothing and vice versa.

  21. How Jonathan came into being, we may never know unless it comes in a future chapter.

    Of course, the identity of the Oracle was kept secret to protect him. Not even Hippolito knew it and imagine his surprise that there is now two Red and Blacks that are now the head of a House.

    I'm thinking more in the lines of partnerships formed by Icarians. In our society, we have couples who have been together for years and consider themselves partners. Some places now allow it legally. Remember, Jamie includes a lot of different issues in today's society into this story.

    Niklas and Jamie seem to know that they are supposed to be together because as Nicklas says to Julius " .... its like he fits exactly a part of me that is missing!". So ceremony or not, there is something about the biology of the two that belong together,

    I think this was engineered into them, besides what was already there. We know from the history lessons we've had that Agramos loved de Valen, but never acted upon it. We know that Edmond Croal created Jamie and Charlie, so whoever created Niklas von Agramon, also created Giovanni and Jamie is the only one who knows Giovanni really is. No one knows who sent him to the school to eventually meet up with Jamie.

    I think from what we have seen so far Icarians are generally randy and promiscuous as well as generally friendly so all kinds of partnership up to a full bond is possible. The bond I think is something different, more on the level of a Vulcan (a la star trek) bond, a permanent mental joining where the participants can almost share one consciousness, sharing a soul or however you want to put it. It is the tearing of this bond that causes disunion and potential suicide. But as I said before, sufficient need or responsibility could overcome it to some extent.

    As to origins, from all we have read so far we can fairly assume Croal created Niklas, Giovanni and probably Jonathan. Why? Because all of these have non-standard, or maybe special would be a better word, DNA. We also know that he created Charles because Charles was the first icarian.

    Who smuggled these boys into their respective niches, Niklas the Gahdar, Giovanni service and expedition at the Mondele and Jonathan who knows where? My betting is on the Farzetti. Although they have little mention in Jamie.wri's work so far, it is obvious they played a very important role behind the scenes. In fact I would guess that they were Croal's principal conspirators, giving him tentacles into every level of the empire.

    Happy new year to one and all.

  22. Slowly pulling the cap off the pen, the ühn•ki once more read the document he was about to sign. Placing pen to paper, the ühn•ki stopped and Darion was surprised to see his leader's hand shake slightly, but the tremor lasted for only a second. Carefully, the ühn•ki signed his name in the delicate, elaborate cursive fashion that marked his distinctive style of writing, also copied from an earlier era. Returning the cap to the pen and placing it back in the desk drawer, his eyes scanned the document for a third time before he picked it up and handed it back to Darion.
    As he made the trip back down the long gallery he knew that his very first action when he returned to his office would be to formally contact the Prince of Imperialas Savaron Loka, while Paulus, following Darion's orders, would call up a 'toon of Imperial shock troops and immediately dispatch them to the tip of Isewier and Villa Mare Vista, the home of the retired Gold Glass scientist Edmond Croal. Looking down at the bottom of the paper, he saw a bloody fingerprint and a few smudges of the ühn•ki's blood next to his leaders neatly signed signature:

    Charles Roegier.

    This is what we have on the signing of the document.

    We also have this on the destruction of the hov.

    As the tiny craft lifted off, Jamie, standing on the skywalk, watched it ascend into the sky. So too did Edmond Croal from his study. From two different locations in the villa, both Croal and his son stood watching the craft until it flew out of sight. What would have surprised both of them, had they been able to continue to follow the hov's progress, was how suddenly twenty minutes after its departure from Villa Mare Vista, it vanished from existence, blown from the sky by a battery of ghoster cannon from an imperial battle hov.

    Well, yes, but those events aren't linked. As I recall, the destruction of the hov after visiting Croal was a long time before Charles signed the warrant that initiated the raid on villa Mare Vista and Croal's death.

    What is more interesting is that the hov was destroyed by an imperial battle hov, the assumption being it was destroyed because it was known by the empire to be involved in no good. However, if there had been suspicions about what the hov visiting Croal had been doing I doubt the empire would have simply shot it down, every effort would have been made to secure those on board in a suitable condition for questioning. More likely this was a cover up to destroy evidence, or possibly someone compromised, or maybe for another reason altogether. If this was an official act of the empire the persons ordering the destruction of the hov and its supposed passengers could have known nothing about its journey and the visit to Croal, if they had the game would have been up at that point. The empire wasn't too worried about having proof, suspicion alone would be enough to act, especially against someone outside the sphere of power as Croal certainly was. However, if it wasn't the empire behind it then those giving the order probably did know what it had been doing and didn't want anyone else to know, which points to one of the resistance groups, most likely the one Charles was leading.

    Interesting. I wonder if it will ever be explained.

  23. The Red and Black that was in Edmond Croal's office that day was not Charles. Several minutes after the hov left Villa Mare Vista, and was well out of sight, was destroyed. We also changed time for a short period to find Charles signing the order, then switched back.

    I'm not sure we can surmise that the Icarian was not Charles. I'm not saying it was but just that since the hov is destroyed out of sight of anyone we know of who was watching, almost anything could have happened within even 3 minutes. Look how fast Renaud lands and restarts his hov while dropping off Jamie at the power generator! We also do not know if the Icarian in Croal's office was the pilot of the hov or if he had another person in the hov acting as pilot.

    All we know is that Jamie saw a Red & Black Icarian entering a hov, then the hov taking off immediately. The flight back to Kuronos would have taken over an hour which gives ample time for someone to have landed, gotten out of the hov, put the hov back into the air or changed hovs mid-trip. Conspiricy theory I know, but isn't this what the Empire is best at?

    This is one other incident that has Jamie.wri signature written all over it as a huge unsolvable puzzle designed to keep us wondering.

    cheers,

    dioscuri

    Yes I pointed out some time ago reference to this incident that hovs could be pre-programmed to fly.

    Also I am not sure that we saw Charles sign the order to destroy the hov, I won't look as I am determined not to re-read anything until the final edit arrives. I only recall him reluctantly giving the order to raid Villa Mare Vista when Loka intervened and Croal was murdered.

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